Gunther Rall RIP
10-29-2009, 10:42 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 647
You guys are right. I meant poorly that he was more of a dog fighter while Erich Hartmann was better at ambushing his enemies. Both did shoot at very close range.
Bunk22, I don't dispute at all that there was constant over claims of victories from any side but here is something interesting I read from USAF Major Robert Tate wrote:
"Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware."
Bunk22, I don't dispute at all that there was constant over claims of victories from any side but here is something interesting I read from USAF Major Robert Tate wrote:
"Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware."
10-29-2009, 04:02 PM
#22
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Retired Naval Aviator
Posts: 377
You guys are right. I meant poorly that he was more of a dog fighter while Erich Hartmann was better at ambushing his enemies. Both did shoot at very close range.
Bunk22, I don't dispute at all that there was constant over claims of victories from any side but here is something interesting I read from USAF Major Robert Tate wrote:
"Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware."
Bunk22, I don't dispute at all that there was constant over claims of victories from any side but here is something interesting I read from USAF Major Robert Tate wrote:
"Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware."
10-29-2009, 09:38 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
His famous day aside, looking at other days where German claims and allied losses just don't add up, days where he scored, hard to determine acutal score. He was no doubt by all accounts a dangerous man and probably would have been overall the number one guy if not for his early demise. As far as his 17 kills in one day, have to compare the actual losses vs the claims and try to piece it together. Might be impossible to do though John B Lundstrom did it for the early months of Guadacanal. Must have taken years of research. Anyone got the time?
and you dare ask such a question? Sounds like a perfect Master's paper at your choice of Command Staff College!
USMCFLYR
10-30-2009, 12:09 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Retired Naval Aviator
Posts: 377
I am starting another online ERAU course for my masters...if only it involved history.
01-06-2012, 11:32 AM
#28
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Position: Downwind, headed straight for the rocks, shanghaied aboard the ship of fools.
Posts: 1,128
Actions define one, not words. Mr. Rall killed an awful lot of people in the name of the nazis. I'll raise my glass to all who fought, all who supported those that fought, and all those killed beating down the nazis.
02-07-2012, 08:56 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: Pipers & RV-12
Posts: 236
Rall did what he was asked by his country. He was 21 when war began. I’m not sure any of us would be any more courageous if put in his shoes. I think it is a folly of our day that we think we are so much better than those in the past. We are Monday-morning quarterbacks of morality. We have our moral critiques of the Crusaders, the South during the US Civil War, Nazi Germany, etc. They would have been astounded at how morally inept and clueless we are today. God help us, we who judge others while understanding very little about their time and Zeitgeist, and about how they made use of the knowledge they had.
I’ll let Rall himself have the final word on what he thought of the war: "...Die mich für meine 275 Abschüsse bewundern, wissen nichts vom Krieg! Sie wissen nicht, was es für ein ganzes Menschenleben bedeutet, dass man in jungen Jahren töten musste, um selbst nicht getötet zu werden. Sie kennen die Scham und die Trauer des Überlebenden nicht”.
Translated, it means: “Those who are impressed by my 275 kills know nothing about war. They know nothing about how it affects a man for his entire life that at a young age he had to kill others, in order for he himself not to be killed. They know nothing of the shame and sadness of the survivors.”
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