iluvetops

Sky,

Have you taken an interview with VA?

Skyone

Nope......I find the whole "jump on the startups" interesting. Just trying to stay conected with the US avaition landscape.

Gillegan

I've been following this debate with some interest and I think that your statement regarding the cost advantage of start ups over legacies hits the nail right on the head. This problem is not confined to the airline industry (the U.S. Auto Industry is facing a similar problem in that much of the cost of benefits of their overseas competition is borne by government). If the industry (read unions and management) don't find a creative way to confront the higher costs of long serving employees, we will continue to see this cycle continue. Today's startups will be tomorrows legacies with all their increased costs. In come a new generation of startups paying their captains what a legacy co-pilot will make. As time goes on, JetBlue (and others) will have a harder and harder time maintaining their cost advantage due to the longer serving employees among other things.

Now the problem is that we would all rather work for an employer that has good pay, decent medical and good retirement benefits. Unless we outlaw new entrants to this and other industries (in your dreams), I don't see a way out without some radical rethinking about how we do things.

CE750

Gillegan, thanks for joining the debate..

here is the rub though..

With the startups having this financial advantage, and then hiring labor at a smaller cost.. this then exerts pressure on the "legacy" operations.. and for a long period of time, wages are artificially depressed and take a long time to recover, by which time another new "start up" enters the field and the whole process starts over.. we'll never break it unless we DEMAND that all pilots working for ANY start up pay wages comparable to their industry field.. So for example WN sets the standard for LCC's, DAL or AMR sets the standard for Legacy Carries, Fedex for Express/Logistics companies, and maybe World for ACMI.. etc..

Skyone

It's not that I would disagree with you in principle. However, how will you DEMAND this? An SOS, I don't think so. How do you demand a pilot that has had a 25 year career with a legacy not to take a job that would pay close to 100K a year? How would you demand a copilot that had ten years service and gets furloughed not to take a captain's seat at a startup? How would you demand a copilot at a regional making $35/hr not take a job flying a Boeing or Airbus at $50 an hour?

Do you put these pilots in a status of "scab"? Well when ALPA wants them to join the union, all would be forgiven to get the $$. And as Gilligan has said above, it is happening worldwide in all industries. It is a worldwide economy, as you know, and there is downward pressure everywhere. But when food needs to get on the table, and it is not crossing a picket line, then it is a tough call. Most of the pilots being hired know the industry, and have a history with the industry. So what do you do? I certainly don't have the answers.

Fred Flintstone

Good comment Skyone...

It's official: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070518/virgi...oval.html?.v=1

Gillegan

In my experience, it comes down to the market. Things like unions are attempts to influence the market in their favor through collective bargaining, closed shops or the like. As nice as it might be to "force" all new entrants to an industry to have competitive pay and conditions to the established players, it simply won't work. They will pay what they have to to attract the required experience, no more. In the end, the market forces will prevail, whether we like it or not. We might be able to bend them or nudge them but we're not going to reverse them. It's simply human nature.

I do find a few things interesting about this Virgin America argument. I wonder why some are so quick to come to the defense of the legacy carriers when they have done so little for you lately. In my opinion, they are dinosaurs. Forget about the whole pay issue for a minute. The legacy carriers reputation for service and quality is a joke. Innovation? Forget it. To be honest, I don't see any of the legacy carriers going out in any big way to establish or develop new markets. Take India for example. United and Delta have a minor presence in that market (a few flights a week), yet the Indian population in the U.S. is huge and the Indian population is one that stays in contact with the relatives back home. Emirates flights to the states (3 a day) are mostly filled with passengers originating in India and there are few seats available. Delta and United are finally going to be coming to the middle east now that the market has been developed by others. All they are going to do is depress the yields that could have been theirs in the first place. And what have they done for you? Stolen your pensions, furloughed your pilots and cut your pay. All while giving themselves big compensation packages and the like.

Don't think for a minute that Continental or American were really worried about the foreign ownership issue. They played that card to delay the start up and drive up the costs of a competitor, plain and simple. Sure excess capacity tends to hurt the employees but in the long run I really think that the employees, the industry and the market in general would be better served by robust, competitive organizations able and willing to compete aggressively. If I was 30 years old right now, I would take a long look at Virgin America because given its brand and the parent organizations marketing prowess, it's got to be better than even money that they will survive and thrive. Stick some reasonable collective bargaining in there and it could be quite a decent job in 10 years.

PedroPat

Very well said Gillegan.


PedroPat

MuseumDriver

If you get on at SWA you will be in the right seat for at least 5 years, if you get on with Virgin America right from the start up you might be in the right seat for 5 minutes. Do you really think they would want someone in the left seat with 2500 hours? Once a little time passes and they fill the first 50% of the pilot need the minimums are sure to go down.

Good luck finding a type in the A320 for $6K, any of the companies doing 320 training are about $11,000 at the least and directly through Airbus in MIA its about $22,000

Cappy

You are concerned about VA's pay rates? Dude, check out year five on this scale...some of these are ALPA or teamster airlines:

Fifth Year Capt Pay based on 70 Hrs Guarantee:

- UPS--------------- 215
- SWA-------------- 204
- ABX-------------- 197
- FedEx------------- 187
- Hawaiian-------- 168
- Astar------------- 160
- AA----------------- 152
- Alaska------------ 144
- Delta--------------- 143
- World------------- 142
- CAL--------------- 138
- AWA--------------- 136
- Aloha------------- 136
- NWA-------------- 130
- Atlas--------------- 126
- UA----------------- 122
- Jet Blue------------ 121
- VA-----------120
- Air Tran----------- 120
- ATA--------------- 120
- USA3000--------- 120
- Original US Air--- 119
- Spirit--------------- 119
- ATI----------------- 114
- Polar--------------- 111
- Focus-------------- 108
- Midwest------------ 102
- Kalitta--------------- 102
- Southern Air------- 100
- Ryan Int’l---------- 97
- Allegiant----------- 96
- North American--- 95
- Sun Country------- 95
- Gemini------------- 94
- Tradewinds--------- 91
- CAT---------------- 90
- Xtra---------------- 90
- Express-Net------- 90
- Omni--------------- 88
- Champion Air------ 85
- Miami Air---------- 87
- Evergreen---------- 83
- Centurion----------- 81
- Arrow Air---------- 77
- Kitty Hawk-------- 75
- USA Jet------------ 75
- Amerijet----------- 67

And some of these fly heavies over water at night.