CAL and Citizens
01-05-2007, 11:58 AM
#21
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,047
Are you aware that you can serve in the military and NOT be a US citizen? There are over 60000 service members that are not citizens.
US law states that you must hold a resident alien card for 5 years prior to applying for citizenship. The law provides a few exemptions to the 5 year requirement. For example, if you are married to a citizen for three years, and your US spouse has been a US citizen for at least 3 years, the five year residency period is reduced to three years.
Legal alien residents contribute to the growth of the US economy and have every right to employment. They are taxed accordingly. Sometimes, alien residents contribute more because they appreciate what they have in the USA where many second generation and upwards Americans do not. Security clearances are the only potential hang up I see in the aviation industry. I have heard, and I may be incorrect, that a security clearance is required to handle mail.
US law states that you must hold a resident alien card for 5 years prior to applying for citizenship. The law provides a few exemptions to the 5 year requirement. For example, if you are married to a citizen for three years, and your US spouse has been a US citizen for at least 3 years, the five year residency period is reduced to three years.
Legal alien residents contribute to the growth of the US economy and have every right to employment. They are taxed accordingly. Sometimes, alien residents contribute more because they appreciate what they have in the USA where many second generation and upwards Americans do not. Security clearances are the only potential hang up I see in the aviation industry. I have heard, and I may be incorrect, that a security clearance is required to handle mail.
This is very true, but somewhat irrelevant to an airline pilot discussion. You have to be a US citizen to be a military officer, and the vast majority of fixed-wing military jobs are avilable only to officers.
I have worked with some great foriegn-national service members, and have no problem with that program.
01-05-2007, 12:07 PM
#22
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,047
One of the guys from my training class told me about a week ago, that CAL is now requiring citizenship. He tried to apply but couldn't because he's a greencard holder. About 4000 hours TT, with 2000 turboprop, and 1000 pure Turbine.
He told me it was related to the US Postal Service contract that CAL just got. Of course that begs the question, what are they going to do about their current non-citizen pilots?
Don't know if this is fact, but this is what I've heard.
Onfinal
He told me it was related to the US Postal Service contract that CAL just got. Of course that begs the question, what are they going to do about their current non-citizen pilots?
Don't know if this is fact, but this is what I've heard.
Onfinal
Their website doesn't say anything about that.
In order to work on a mail contract you have to pass a background check...I suspect the standard 121 check covers that. My airlines have all carried mail, and I never had a special background check for that (that I know of).
You do not need a security clearance to work with mail.
I am sure you do not need US citizship to participate in CRAF...almost every US major and national airline (except regionals) is in CRAF, and there are a lot of non-citizen pilots out there. CRAF doesn't do super-secret missions, or even high-risk missions under most circumstances.
01-05-2007, 12:14 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 367
01-05-2007, 12:19 PM
#24
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 98
Obviously this discussion can tentacle into so many other issues that I am sure everyone would love to jump into and participate, however in the interest of staying on message I will leave that to Lou Dobbs.
My concern is for jobs as PILOTS in this country.
Cheers!
01-05-2007, 03:06 PM
#25
Nice lookin' tree, there!
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Tool-Box, old man
Posts: 2,204
fumes, I'm confused?
QUOTE=A320fumes;99175]Maybe I missed something. I'll clear it up...the black-face was offensive.... to me. And I did spend quite a bit of time as a Captain on the A-320, and several other large wide body aircraft. I will re-read and see if their was something that justifies that avatar, but I doubt it. It's hard to see how some wouldn't find that offensive, and if I'm the only one, it seems appropriate that Cal let one slip in. And I've nurtured many an F/O with that type of attitude, probably because guys like you won't. If the originator of this post would like to know why it might be offensive, please pm me and I'll elaborate. I've spent most of my time flying abroad and realize that cultural differences are difficult as a visitor. I'm just surprised that no one else felt obligated to tell you that black face isn't funny and won't be taken lightly if you aspire professional airline employment. Sorry if I called you an @sshole, you just acted like one posting that avatar. Listening to vgb & fbh won't help you, unless you can find an airline that condones that type of thing... trust me...it won't be easy. No one need to respond on this board. If you'd like to know why I was offended please pm me, I'll patiently explain.[/QUOTE]
Your use of the term "black face" in your post of 01-03-07 @11:38am was the FIRST that I can find in the thread. I'm offended by the term too. If it was in his/her avatar, it didn't show up on my computer.(it's still not showing) If that is in fact what happened, I'm sorry. I owe you an apology for dumping on you.
Sincerely,
fbh
Your use of the term "black face" in your post of 01-03-07 @11:38am was the FIRST that I can find in the thread. I'm offended by the term too. If it was in his/her avatar, it didn't show up on my computer.(it's still not showing) If that is in fact what happened, I'm sorry. I owe you an apology for dumping on you.
Sincerely,
fbh
01-05-2007, 04:12 PM
#26
Administrator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
The author of the thread did have an avatar of someone or something depicting a black face. I had never seen it before and it did not appear to be one of the more common stereotypical ones seen in the media. That avatar has since been removed, but I do not know when. A320's post did not make clear that it was the avatar he found offensive. I read his post to indicate he did not like the fact that Papa L is a permanent resident (green card holder). It is obvious I misunderstood you, A320, and for that I apologize. Like fbh, I find stereotypes and caricatures highly offensive, and they have no place in the forums.
01-06-2007, 09:04 AM
#27
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B777 Cpt.
Posts: 95
The author of the thread did have an avatar of someone or something depicting a black face. I had never seen it before and it did not appear to be one of the more common stereotypical ones seen in the media. That avatar has since been removed, but I do not know when. A320's post did not make clear that it was the avatar he found offensive. I read his post to indicate he did not like the fact that Papa L is a permanent resident (green card holder). It is obvious I misunderstood you, A320, and for that I apologize. Like fbh, I find stereotypes and caricatures highly offensive, and they have no place in the forums.
Papa Lazarou is a wildly popular character (especially in Australia!) from the British comedy series The League of Gentlemen. The League of Gents aired on the BBC in the UK and (briefly) on Comedy Central in the US. The show is set in the mythical town of Royston Vasey. (It was filmed mostly on location in Hadfield, a village near Glossop in the High Peak district of Derbyshire, England). It brought us such memorable characters as the Dentons, Pauline, Edward and Tubbs, Bernice, and of course Papa Lazarou. If you want to learn more about Royston Vasey look here. If you want to know more about the Gents (Jeremy Dyson, Steve Pemberton, Mark Gatiss and Reece Shearsmith) go here. Papa Lazarou's Pandemonium Carnival was my tribute to one of the most memorable characters ever created, and a lot of people must agree.
My wild guess is that the initiator of this thread is probably from either the UK or Australia, a fan of that show and choose this screenname and the avatar. I don't think it was meant to be offensive. It's just that british humour tends to be offending at times. Just go and google Monty Python... or watch some BBC America
Maybe this puts this into some kind of perspective.
01-06-2007, 09:19 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
Are you aware that you can serve in the military and NOT be a US citizen? There are over 60000 service members that are not citizens.
US law states that you must hold a resident alien card for 5 years prior to applying for citizenship. The law provides a few exemptions to the 5 year requirement. For example, if you are married to a citizen for three years, and your US spouse has been a US citizen for at least 3 years, the five year residency period is reduced to three years.
Legal alien residents contribute to the growth of the US economy and have every right to employment. They are taxed accordingly. Sometimes, alien residents contribute more because they appreciate what they have in the USA where many second generation and upwards Americans do not. Security clearances are the only potential hang up I see in the aviation industry. I have heard, and I may be incorrect, that a security clearance is required to handle mail.
US law states that you must hold a resident alien card for 5 years prior to applying for citizenship. The law provides a few exemptions to the 5 year requirement. For example, if you are married to a citizen for three years, and your US spouse has been a US citizen for at least 3 years, the five year residency period is reduced to three years.
Legal alien residents contribute to the growth of the US economy and have every right to employment. They are taxed accordingly. Sometimes, alien residents contribute more because they appreciate what they have in the USA where many second generation and upwards Americans do not. Security clearances are the only potential hang up I see in the aviation industry. I have heard, and I may be incorrect, that a security clearance is required to handle mail.
01-06-2007, 09:23 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Interesting thread, I do know that some carriers require their pilots to be US Passport Holders to participate in CRAF (Civil Reserve Air Fleet). In my experience this has been a Department of Defense rule and not air carrier specific, and only when in time of war. CAL does participate in CRAF. I am not familiar with a requirement for the USPS and that being said, UPS and FEDEX both require that the pilots they hire have not lived outside of the US for a specific amount of time for that very reason.
Regarding foreign pilots applying for positions at US carriers. America is a great nation that has trained pilots privately, professionally and militarily since I can remember. My first training base in the Air Force was at a NATO training location in North Central Texas, and the State I currently reside in is inundated with flight training schools with students from all over the globe, so I believe I can speak with some validity on this subject. Why do you think people from all over the world come to America for flight training? I think it is wonderful that people recognize that America is a wonderful place to take advantage of a democracy that allows such privileges and freedoms unlike that anywhere else in the world to come train. Good for us, good for them.
My position on hiring non citizen pilots in the US is that it is just another back door outsourcing of jobs in the U.S. This is in by no means an isolationist or discriminatory position, just fact. We have thousands of furloughed pilots in the US who are citizens with some jumping back into active duty military service to feed and medically cover their families (what about those who do not have that option), not to mention our guys and gals in the Armed Services who will be looking for jobs and lets not forget our folks at the regional & supplemental operations who are paying their dues to hopefully move on to a legacy carrier as great of an operation as CAL.
Come visit, vacation, train, whatever, but if you want to participate in employment in America and all of the other wonderful things that you can accomplish here...I welcome your application for citizenship.
Regarding foreign pilots applying for positions at US carriers. America is a great nation that has trained pilots privately, professionally and militarily since I can remember. My first training base in the Air Force was at a NATO training location in North Central Texas, and the State I currently reside in is inundated with flight training schools with students from all over the globe, so I believe I can speak with some validity on this subject. Why do you think people from all over the world come to America for flight training? I think it is wonderful that people recognize that America is a wonderful place to take advantage of a democracy that allows such privileges and freedoms unlike that anywhere else in the world to come train. Good for us, good for them.
My position on hiring non citizen pilots in the US is that it is just another back door outsourcing of jobs in the U.S. This is in by no means an isolationist or discriminatory position, just fact. We have thousands of furloughed pilots in the US who are citizens with some jumping back into active duty military service to feed and medically cover their families (what about those who do not have that option), not to mention our guys and gals in the Armed Services who will be looking for jobs and lets not forget our folks at the regional & supplemental operations who are paying their dues to hopefully move on to a legacy carrier as great of an operation as CAL.
Come visit, vacation, train, whatever, but if you want to participate in employment in America and all of the other wonderful things that you can accomplish here...I welcome your application for citizenship.
Good post...
01-06-2007, 10:43 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
