NWA scope clause
12-30-2006, 07:49 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Your logic is totally and completely flawed. Answer this one question: How is ALPA to blame for Northwest pilots voting to ratify a crappy TA?
ALPA failed in 1990 to scope all turbojet flying with the CRJ. That was a direct failure of leadership at the national level, as well as at Delta ALPA. It could be said they didn't learn their lesson there, and now we have 70 and 76 and 86 and 90 seat "RJs" within the industry.
ALPA National is not responsible for the scope decisions of a single member airline...and if they did have issue with it, DW could have always refused to sign the CBA.
The Air Line Pilots Association is not some monolitic being that resides in Herndon, VA...ALPA is the President, the BOD, the MEC Chairs & members, the LEC chairs, and every single pilot that makes up every single pilot group. Everybody *****es and whines and wants to point fingers at the ills of this industry. Its real easy to loudly ignorantly yell "its ALPA's fault!" but the truth of the matter is "ALPA" is staring at you in the mirror every single farking morning, and until we as pilots start to take responsiblity for our actions as employees and union members, we cannot honestly blame all our problems on our representative bargaining organization.
ALPA failed in 1990 to scope all turbojet flying with the CRJ. That was a direct failure of leadership at the national level, as well as at Delta ALPA. It could be said they didn't learn their lesson there, and now we have 70 and 76 and 86 and 90 seat "RJs" within the industry.
ALPA National is not responsible for the scope decisions of a single member airline...and if they did have issue with it, DW could have always refused to sign the CBA.
The Air Line Pilots Association is not some monolitic being that resides in Herndon, VA...ALPA is the President, the BOD, the MEC Chairs & members, the LEC chairs, and every single pilot that makes up every single pilot group. Everybody *****es and whines and wants to point fingers at the ills of this industry. Its real easy to loudly ignorantly yell "its ALPA's fault!" but the truth of the matter is "ALPA" is staring at you in the mirror every single farking morning, and until we as pilots start to take responsiblity for our actions as employees and union members, we cannot honestly blame all our problems on our representative bargaining organization.
you answered your own question in the second paragraph. alpa screwed up in the 90's with 50 seaters and the then dropped the ball with 70 and 90 seaters. you would think that they would learn from their mistakes but they obviously haven't in this regards. there are some things that should be unnegotiable in my mind and one of those things is scope. if one airline is allowed to loosen it then the rest seem to fall in line and use the excuse that they are doing nothing different than the others. this is how some nwa pilots explained their rationale for allowing the reduction in scope.
that whole line that you and I are ALPA is nice but in reality it is just lip service. we elect our officers to look over us as a whole and then they make the decisions not you and me. I've tried to attend the national meetings only to be told that I would not be allowed to attend and that only my elected officials were. I asked if they could bring up a couple concerns that I had and they said they planed to. for example whipsawing. when they got back I was talking to one of them to find out what was discussed and he said that they couldn't tell me that is was secret. I thought it was very interesting to find out that my union wouldn't tell me what was discussed about our industry as a whole. scary...
06-16-2007, 07:20 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Captain
Posts: 129
[quote=ryane946;96653]THIS IS TOTAL CRAP!!!
This entire agreement looks like ALPA had their head up their @$$ worrying about the Northwest furloughed pilots. Meanwhile, all those pilots have now been offered recall (cause no one wants to go back to Northwest. GEE, I WONDER WHY?!?!?! They screwed Norhtwest pilots. They screwed the entire industry which is their duty to protect.
Northwest pilots should have just struck instead of allowing this crap to be passed. Burn the house down. Northwest is a $hithole. Lowest pay of the legacies. I hope it goes out of business.
This is awfully big talk froma CFI...excuse me CFII.
First of all, it's really easy to say "NWA pilots should have struck instead of allowing this to pass." How would you justify burning down the house that provides you with over $100,000 a year? Who wins with that?
As to this horrible contract that you refer to, it has it's faults, that's for sure. But did you know through our equity claim that we received through our contract EVERY pilot received over $90,000 in a combination of stock/cash and 401k contribution?
Our horrible management also worked with ALPA and Congres to pass legislation that saved the pension for our employees, and added a Defined Contribution plan that will provide some pilots with 12-15% into there 401k annually. Those boys at Delta, United,and USAirways had there pensions terminated. I'm sure this doesn't impress you, because that retirement plan at that 141 school you teach at I'm sure has a very impressive retitement plan set up for you.
This entire agreement looks like ALPA had their head up their @$$ worrying about the Northwest furloughed pilots. Meanwhile, all those pilots have now been offered recall (cause no one wants to go back to Northwest. GEE, I WONDER WHY?!?!?! They screwed Norhtwest pilots. They screwed the entire industry which is their duty to protect.
Northwest pilots should have just struck instead of allowing this crap to be passed. Burn the house down. Northwest is a $hithole. Lowest pay of the legacies. I hope it goes out of business.
This is awfully big talk froma CFI...excuse me CFII.
First of all, it's really easy to say "NWA pilots should have struck instead of allowing this to pass." How would you justify burning down the house that provides you with over $100,000 a year? Who wins with that?
As to this horrible contract that you refer to, it has it's faults, that's for sure. But did you know through our equity claim that we received through our contract EVERY pilot received over $90,000 in a combination of stock/cash and 401k contribution?
Our horrible management also worked with ALPA and Congres to pass legislation that saved the pension for our employees, and added a Defined Contribution plan that will provide some pilots with 12-15% into there 401k annually. Those boys at Delta, United,and USAirways had there pensions terminated. I'm sure this doesn't impress you, because that retirement plan at that 141 school you teach at I'm sure has a very impressive retitement plan set up for you.
06-17-2007, 04:20 PM
#23
Recommend Retention
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Bigfoot
Posts: 1,077
[quote=flyguy1;181167]
Well said. Let's not forget that Compass WAS voted in by NWA pilots and is certainly a better option than being furloughed and on the street. Even after the recalls, there are NWA pilots on the seniority list at Compass. I really wish people wouldn't write off NWA. Personally, I would welcome the opportunity to rebuild a true legacy and the pilot group is to be congratulated for sticking it out - NOT badmouthing other people on here. I hope the guy who started this thread is never faced with a furlough or a strike. Whatever happened to 'walking a mile in someone else's shoes?' Disgusting to see someone wishing thousands of people out of work.
THIS IS TOTAL CRAP!!!
This entire agreement looks like ALPA had their head up their @$$ worrying about the Northwest furloughed pilots. Meanwhile, all those pilots have now been offered recall (cause no one wants to go back to Northwest. GEE, I WONDER WHY?!?!?! They screwed Norhtwest pilots. They screwed the entire industry which is their duty to protect.
Northwest pilots should have just struck instead of allowing this crap to be passed. Burn the house down. Northwest is a $hithole. Lowest pay of the legacies. I hope it goes out of business.
This is awfully big talk froma CFI...excuse me CFII.
First of all, it's really easy to say "NWA pilots should have struck instead of allowing this to pass." How would you justify burning down the house that provides you with over $100,000 a year? Who wins with that?
As to this horrible contract that you refer to, it has it's faults, that's for sure. But did you know through our equity claim that we received through our contract EVERY pilot received over $90,000 in a combination of stock/cash and 401k contribution?
Our horrible management also worked with ALPA and Congres to pass legislation that saved the pension for our employees, and added a Defined Contribution plan that will provide some pilots with 12-15% into there 401k annually. Those boys at Delta, United,and USAirways had there pensions terminated. I'm sure this doesn't impress you, because that retirement plan at that 141 school you teach at I'm sure has a very impressive retitement plan set up for you.
This entire agreement looks like ALPA had their head up their @$$ worrying about the Northwest furloughed pilots. Meanwhile, all those pilots have now been offered recall (cause no one wants to go back to Northwest. GEE, I WONDER WHY?!?!?! They screwed Norhtwest pilots. They screwed the entire industry which is their duty to protect.
Northwest pilots should have just struck instead of allowing this crap to be passed. Burn the house down. Northwest is a $hithole. Lowest pay of the legacies. I hope it goes out of business.
This is awfully big talk froma CFI...excuse me CFII.
First of all, it's really easy to say "NWA pilots should have struck instead of allowing this to pass." How would you justify burning down the house that provides you with over $100,000 a year? Who wins with that?
As to this horrible contract that you refer to, it has it's faults, that's for sure. But did you know through our equity claim that we received through our contract EVERY pilot received over $90,000 in a combination of stock/cash and 401k contribution?
Our horrible management also worked with ALPA and Congres to pass legislation that saved the pension for our employees, and added a Defined Contribution plan that will provide some pilots with 12-15% into there 401k annually. Those boys at Delta, United,and USAirways had there pensions terminated. I'm sure this doesn't impress you, because that retirement plan at that 141 school you teach at I'm sure has a very impressive retitement plan set up for you.
06-17-2007, 04:56 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
[QUOTE=LifeNtheFstLne;181703]
Well said. Let's not forget that Compass WAS voted in by NWA pilots and is certainly a better option than being furloughed and on the street. Even after the recalls, there are NWA pilots on the seniority list at Compass. I really wish people wouldn't write off NWA. Personally, I would welcome the opportunity to rebuild a true legacy and the pilot group is to be congratulated for sticking it out - NOT badmouthing other people on here. I hope the guy who started this thread is never faced with a furlough or a strike. Whatever happened to 'walking a mile in someone else's shoes?' Disgusting to see someone wishing thousands of people out of work.
so do you really think giving away flying at a major is a good thing (this includes profits as well to whoever gets it). why can't delta united northwest and the others do 70+ flying? I bet they'd be recalled sooner and expand if they didn't outsource that flying. that goes for all airlines.
so how many NWA pilots are at compass? a friend will be in class soon and I don't think any NWA pilots will be their.
as for the thread starter (me) I lost the job that I worked 10+ years to get due to 911 and I'm not afraid to strike. I've been through a couple with my parents growing up.
ps how did this thing get brought back to life....
Well said. Let's not forget that Compass WAS voted in by NWA pilots and is certainly a better option than being furloughed and on the street. Even after the recalls, there are NWA pilots on the seniority list at Compass. I really wish people wouldn't write off NWA. Personally, I would welcome the opportunity to rebuild a true legacy and the pilot group is to be congratulated for sticking it out - NOT badmouthing other people on here. I hope the guy who started this thread is never faced with a furlough or a strike. Whatever happened to 'walking a mile in someone else's shoes?' Disgusting to see someone wishing thousands of people out of work.
so how many NWA pilots are at compass? a friend will be in class soon and I don't think any NWA pilots will be their.
as for the thread starter (me) I lost the job that I worked 10+ years to get due to 911 and I'm not afraid to strike. I've been through a couple with my parents growing up.
ps how did this thing get brought back to life....
06-20-2007, 03:13 AM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 52
[QUOTE=LifeNtheFstLne;181703]
Well said. Let's not forget that Compass WAS voted in by NWA pilots and is certainly a better option than being furloughed and on the street. Even after the recalls, there are NWA pilots on the seniority list at Compass. I really wish people wouldn't write off NWA. Personally, I would welcome the opportunity to rebuild a true legacy and the pilot group is to be congratulated for sticking it out - NOT badmouthing other people on here. I hope the guy who started this thread is never faced with a furlough or a strike. Whatever happened to 'walking a mile in someone else's shoes?' Disgusting to see someone wishing thousands of people out of work.
Ask all of those YES voters if they ever READ the contract.. I think not. The Union(Mark MaClain to be specific) sold them a bunch of crap. They took all of those pay cuts to keep the company out of bankruptcy(that worked!!) and they thought they were saving their frozen pensions(there is NOTHING in the contract that guarantees pensions-they can still be axed).Work rules-what work rules???
Well said. Let's not forget that Compass WAS voted in by NWA pilots and is certainly a better option than being furloughed and on the street. Even after the recalls, there are NWA pilots on the seniority list at Compass. I really wish people wouldn't write off NWA. Personally, I would welcome the opportunity to rebuild a true legacy and the pilot group is to be congratulated for sticking it out - NOT badmouthing other people on here. I hope the guy who started this thread is never faced with a furlough or a strike. Whatever happened to 'walking a mile in someone else's shoes?' Disgusting to see someone wishing thousands of people out of work.
06-20-2007, 05:01 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Captain, CRJ-200, ASA
Posts: 876
they both screwed up big time. ALPA should carry some of the blame because as a whole they should be protecting the industy and not just one airline. the problem is that the toothpaste is already out of the tube in regards to delta, united, usairways, alaska, america west and american (I know not alpa) and there is no putting it back in that tube.
who would have thought that CAL is the only airline w/o 70 seaters out sourced.
who would have thought that CAL is the only airline w/o 70 seaters out sourced.
All the mainline groups (pilots and management) need to do is agree to assimilate the flying of the regional airlines, and staple the pilots doing it to the bottom of the mainline lists. Then "all XXX (NWA, DAL, UAL, etc) flying will be done by XXX pilots" again.
Think about it.
06-20-2007, 05:29 AM
#27
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,609
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
All the mainline groups (pilots and management) need to do is agree to assimilate the flying of the regional airlines, and staple the pilots doing it to the bottom of the mainline lists. Then "all XXX (NWA, DAL, UAL, etc) flying will be done by XXX pilots" again.
I'm fully against stapling a pilot list to another in principal...but stapling a regional carrier to the bottom of the mainline list, with long (5-8 year) fences and 1-2 year bump/flush protections for the regional pilots (especially those senior regional CAs) would be a great way to secure one airline, one list brand scope.
06-21-2007, 06:27 AM
#28
captains food tester
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
Let it be a lesson to all. A skillfull bully like Steenland can divide the special interest groups (senior,junior,widebody,narrowbody) beat down a pilot negotiator, intimidate the MEC, then ram a contract on us that only about 60% of the pilot group even read all the way through. I still can't belive what happened. Get out if you can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06-21-2007, 06:44 AM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: C-17A EP, MD-88FO
Posts: 27
pullup, i have seen the light!!!!. i am in the 2 jul class at ups and i cant wait to get nwa in the rear view mirror. The MEC's performance during the TA was abysmal and really was more grossly negligent as they were essentially complicit with NWA mgmt. The lies and promises were many to get the "have nots" to support the "haves" A truly disgusting new chapter at ALPA..
06-21-2007, 06:58 AM
#30
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
[QUOTE=Eric Stratton;181716]
so do you really think giving away flying at a major is a good thing (this includes profits as well to whoever gets it). why can't delta united northwest and the others do 70+ flying? I bet they'd be recalled sooner and expand if they didn't outsource that flying. that goes for all airlines.
so how many NWA pilots are at compass? a friend will be in class soon and I don't think any NWA pilots will be their.
as for the thread starter (me) I lost the job that I worked 10+ years to get due to 911 and I'm not afraid to strike. I've been through a couple with my parents growing up.
ps how did this thing get brought back to life....
EGO EGO EGO they are tooo good to fly 70 seat airplanes..................
so do you really think giving away flying at a major is a good thing (this includes profits as well to whoever gets it). why can't delta united northwest and the others do 70+ flying? I bet they'd be recalled sooner and expand if they didn't outsource that flying. that goes for all airlines.
so how many NWA pilots are at compass? a friend will be in class soon and I don't think any NWA pilots will be their.
as for the thread starter (me) I lost the job that I worked 10+ years to get due to 911 and I'm not afraid to strike. I've been through a couple with my parents growing up.
ps how did this thing get brought back to life....
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