Here's why AA aircraft taxi so slow....
11-30-2006, 01:53 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 767 CA
Posts: 1,876
Speaking of silly checklist procedures...here's another.
The FO is required to make a PA advising the pax to remain in their seats until the seat belt sign is turned off...and to advise the FAs to prepare for arrival. The timing is important. The FO should make the announcement so that he's finished just as the aircraft reaches the 'stop' point at the jetway. Not ten feet away...not two feet away...nope! On the spot!!
So...as the airplane approaches the jetway, the FO's attention is on making that PA. Sound smart to you?
What company might that be?
American Airlines, of course.
The FO is required to make a PA advising the pax to remain in their seats until the seat belt sign is turned off...and to advise the FAs to prepare for arrival. The timing is important. The FO should make the announcement so that he's finished just as the aircraft reaches the 'stop' point at the jetway. Not ten feet away...not two feet away...nope! On the spot!!
So...as the airplane approaches the jetway, the FO's attention is on making that PA. Sound smart to you?
What company might that be?
American Airlines, of course.
Of course as soon as the F/O starts that announcement it's amazing how many seat belts you hear clicking.
11-30-2006, 02:35 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Lazy-boy Captain
Posts: 242
The light just came on (I think)
I think the big light must have just been illuminated.
I always assumed that SWA was just as busy in the cockpit as AA.
Especially while taxiing to the runway.
I always thought it has elbows and hands flying around the cockpit
for all airlines. Not just AA Super 80.
Thats why when I see SWA zoom by on the taxiway I just assumed
that nobody was watching where there are going. From my
view it looked quite dangerous. similar to a runaway
frieght train
In all due respect
to SWA, If both guys (or at least one) has undivided attention
on the taxiing then going fast is not a bad idea.
AA could never taxi fast with the before takeoff checklist going
on. Just too much to do.
Guess you still can learn something new everyday.
I always assumed that SWA was just as busy in the cockpit as AA.
Especially while taxiing to the runway.
I always thought it has elbows and hands flying around the cockpit
for all airlines. Not just AA Super 80.
Thats why when I see SWA zoom by on the taxiway I just assumed
that nobody was watching where there are going. From my
view it looked quite dangerous. similar to a runaway
frieght train
In all due respect
to SWA, If both guys (or at least one) has undivided attention
on the taxiing then going fast is not a bad idea.
AA could never taxi fast with the before takeoff checklist going
on. Just too much to do.
Guess you still can learn something new everyday.
11-30-2006, 03:11 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Brown 747-400
Posts: 524
Try jumpseating on us one day, and you'll see the difference. AA is the last of the major airlines to have yet to undergo a CRM-inspired revamp of flight operations. Our check list is challenge and response down to the silliest things, such as "Transponder", "Landing lights", "APU", etc. These are all items that at most airlines, the F/O just reads out loud and confirms. In our case the CA has to physically look and respond, and that takes his concentration off from taxiing.
Captains have to start engines. On the MD80, when we go out on one engine, the CA has to start the second engine, and that means using his right hand to hold the start switch for 45 seconds - while he's taxiing with his left hand - and that takes a little coordination. This results in slower taxi speeds.
Captains also have to make the "Prepare for Takeoff" PA to the F/As. While they're only supposed to say it verbatim, a lot of captains give a whole spiel that sometimes takes 30 secs, and since they're taxiing, this causes them to slow down as well.
Do you see where I'm getting at? AA's procedures are very geared toward ancestral worship, "because that's the way we did it on the Electra", or whatever. I'm not saying it's right, just giving you folks some enlightment on what goes on here.
73
Captains have to start engines. On the MD80, when we go out on one engine, the CA has to start the second engine, and that means using his right hand to hold the start switch for 45 seconds - while he's taxiing with his left hand - and that takes a little coordination. This results in slower taxi speeds.
Captains also have to make the "Prepare for Takeoff" PA to the F/As. While they're only supposed to say it verbatim, a lot of captains give a whole spiel that sometimes takes 30 secs, and since they're taxiing, this causes them to slow down as well.
Do you see where I'm getting at? AA's procedures are very geared toward ancestral worship, "because that's the way we did it on the Electra", or whatever. I'm not saying it's right, just giving you folks some enlightment on what goes on here.
73
When I was at Delta on the MD-88/90, the FO's always started both engines, ran the checklists, responded to almost all of the checklist items alone, and made the pre-departure PA while taxiing. The Capt taxied the aircraft, and responded to "flaps and slats, flight controls, and altimeters." The Capt's primary responsibility was to keep his head out of the cockpit, and taxi the aircraft safely....the FO did everything else. I loved the takeoff brief at Delta....heading, altitude, airspeed, and that was it. Everything else was covered in the pre-departure brief at the gate during the "Before Start" checklist. I kinda miss those days....but the 88 was the busiest cockpit I ever sat my keister.
11-30-2006, 03:50 PM
#35
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
I first learned to hate the FAA when I went to a GATO office back in 1986 and complained that our little regional airline made us by our Jepps. I quoted the reg that stated the operator had to provide charts. They responded that as long as the company had a rule requiring us to buy our charts, they had provided that current charts were aboard. It made me sick.
11-30-2006, 03:53 PM
#36
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
That's what I said in my suggestions.
As far as the "Prepare" PA, the reasoning was that, "We feel Captains have a better idea on when to seat the F/As then the F/O." To which I responded, "then why not have the CA tell the F/O to seat the F/As."
The MD80 is kind of unique in that the start switches are all the way on the CA's section of the overhead panel.
As far as the "Prepare" PA, the reasoning was that, "We feel Captains have a better idea on when to seat the F/As then the F/O." To which I responded, "then why not have the CA tell the F/O to seat the F/As."
The MD80 is kind of unique in that the start switches are all the way on the CA's section of the overhead panel.
Don't you mean "SUPER-80"???
11-30-2006, 04:49 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: SWA/FO
Posts: 309
aa73: First off, it became apparent early on the AAavitor or whatever his name was, was an imposter. No worries.
Second, does AA have any specific type of aircraft involved in a company FDAP program? This would probably be a good place to start for getting things changed if you have the data to back it up. Just curious if you all have that over there or not.
Also, everything is done before you even start to taxi at SW. (with a few exceptions, RWY update etc) It's a two pilot heads up taxi.
Second, does AA have any specific type of aircraft involved in a company FDAP program? This would probably be a good place to start for getting things changed if you have the data to back it up. Just curious if you all have that over there or not.
Also, everything is done before you even start to taxi at SW. (with a few exceptions, RWY update etc) It's a two pilot heads up taxi.
Last edited by 328dude; 11-30-2006 at 04:56 PM.
11-30-2006, 05:00 PM
#38
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 747 Cap
Posts: 96
I guess that's what I loved most about TWA. Everyone in the cockpit assumed the other crewmembers were either (1) Competent or (2) Gonna be a Captain someday.
Up until the Nazi's took over, the ONLY memorized item was "Throttle, Close". And we screwed THAT up half the time. But seriously, the rest came under "fly the airplane first, "read and do" the checklist next".
The Jepp "briefing strip" didn't exist in our little world. Look at my signature below - that was the "approach brief" for STL 30R. Worked every time.
At my current job, we have adopted the AA format. IE: Briefings that go on, and on, and on, and on....you get the picture. Oh yeah, we haven't got to the checklists yet. It's sad trying to listen to the FE read (in a panicked voice) a checklist for "final approach" while we are trying to fly, configure, stabilize, talk to tower, etc, etc. You get the picture. Too much "noise".
Up until the Nazi's took over, the ONLY memorized item was "Throttle, Close". And we screwed THAT up half the time. But seriously, the rest came under "fly the airplane first, "read and do" the checklist next".
The Jepp "briefing strip" didn't exist in our little world. Look at my signature below - that was the "approach brief" for STL 30R. Worked every time.
At my current job, we have adopted the AA format. IE: Briefings that go on, and on, and on, and on....you get the picture. Oh yeah, we haven't got to the checklists yet. It's sad trying to listen to the FE read (in a panicked voice) a checklist for "final approach" while we are trying to fly, configure, stabilize, talk to tower, etc, etc. You get the picture. Too much "noise".
11-30-2006, 05:07 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 367
When I worked at an FBO, I would always notice pilots taxiing faster than they were supposed to. Two airlines I remember that taxied obsurdley fast.
American (especially the MD-80's and 757's)
Southwest!! (one must have set the land speed record on taxiway Alpha)
Just an honest observation.
American (especially the MD-80's and 757's)
Southwest!! (one must have set the land speed record on taxiway Alpha)
Just an honest observation.
11-30-2006, 05:22 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,918
Thanks for the replies.
328Dude, we just adopted something called FOQA (sp?) that supposedly collects trend data. Is that what you are referring to?
Ironspud - AA has actually tremendously pared down the briefings. We don't do as much talking anymore. This was actually taken from the TWA ranks and has gotten very good feedback. However, I must point out that, just like at TWA, we at AA *always assume* that our fellow crewmembers are as competent as we are.
As far as SWA and CAL go, I know for a fact that they get the flaps and flight control checks done before even beginning taxi, and that the before TO checks are pretty short. The way DAL does it is also very good.
Folks, as I pointed out earlier, we are just not a very CRM-friendly airline yet. Heck I specifically remember one incident that stands out. We were sitting on the ground in MIA on a ground stop to PHL. Suddenly, ground tells us to spin 'em and be ready. Here's what happens: The CA starts the left motor, starts taxiing, and then while moving starts the right one. As the right one is starting - and AS HE"S TAXIING! - he gets on the PA and starts a 1min-long spiel on the delay, route of flight, ETA, etc. So, he's taxiing, starting an engine, and talking on the PA, all at the same time! It was unsafe and I mentioned it. He blew it off, saying that "you get good at this stuff when you upgrade."
Watch out for us out there. I'm pretty heads up and have good SA, but that's just me.
328Dude, we just adopted something called FOQA (sp?) that supposedly collects trend data. Is that what you are referring to?
Ironspud - AA has actually tremendously pared down the briefings. We don't do as much talking anymore. This was actually taken from the TWA ranks and has gotten very good feedback. However, I must point out that, just like at TWA, we at AA *always assume* that our fellow crewmembers are as competent as we are.
As far as SWA and CAL go, I know for a fact that they get the flaps and flight control checks done before even beginning taxi, and that the before TO checks are pretty short. The way DAL does it is also very good.
Folks, as I pointed out earlier, we are just not a very CRM-friendly airline yet. Heck I specifically remember one incident that stands out. We were sitting on the ground in MIA on a ground stop to PHL. Suddenly, ground tells us to spin 'em and be ready. Here's what happens: The CA starts the left motor, starts taxiing, and then while moving starts the right one. As the right one is starting - and AS HE"S TAXIING! - he gets on the PA and starts a 1min-long spiel on the delay, route of flight, ETA, etc. So, he's taxiing, starting an engine, and talking on the PA, all at the same time! It was unsafe and I mentioned it. He blew it off, saying that "you get good at this stuff when you upgrade."
Watch out for us out there. I'm pretty heads up and have good SA, but that's just me.
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