shackone

I see the makings of an Oliver Stone movie!

Can you work Bill Clinton into the plot somewhere?

jetblaster

You ex-TWA boys sure are a bunch of immature whack-jobs.

jetblaster

Just to summarize the positions of FliFast and Shackone:

--launch into a thread thumping your chest, bragging about your past fighter-pilot persona and boast about being a check airman; use past deaths of American Airlines pilots to illustrate your prowess and denigrate them to shore-up your contention that if AA would have "listened" and did things the TWA-Way, those crashes would not have happened;

--when challenged on this, claim you didn't say it; when proven a liar, try to change the subject. Suffer under the truth of the history of failure of the TWA pilot and the damage done to the profession due to the concessions given by TWA pilots as they bottom-fed to save their jobs. When the denials are revealed and the truth about TWA hurting get too much, just blabber about nothing and hope no one notices. E-mail a few of your ex-TWA buddies to come online to bail you out.

--So, ex-TWA FliFast appears and ignores any real substance and simply taunts in immature fashion.

--Curiously, FliFast's focus seems to be on Dancing On the Graves of Dead Pilots as well. I'm not sure what kind of mental disorders spread through TWA as they got Stockholmed to the point of supporting a creep like the exploiting Bill Compton and thinking he was doing them some sort of favor, but where I come from, we honor the dead, respect our fellow pilots and realize that management--not other pilots, especially dead ones--are the real enemy.

Does that about sum it up? FliFast, in his zeal to launch his animosity and scratch the itch of his perceived slight by AA pilots will actually seek to mock the deceased pilots of AA 587, ignoring the compelling data that shows a determined effort by Airbus to influence the investigation, a cover-up of important data and the obvious conflict of interest by the NTSB.

The actions of FliFast and Shackone are illustrative. They show how our profession has suffered the humiliation of massive paycuts, layoffs, outsourcing and union-busting. They show the kind of men who led us down this path of shame and weakness, men who do not even realize the score in the real world.

These guys are lost causes. No amount of intelligent evidence will move a guy like this past his irrational hatred and jealousy; a man who would exploit the dead of his own is perhaps the lowest form.

If their track record is any gauge, you may now expect more jeering and taunting, with little in the way of data except more quotes from the NTSB report (at least we have gotten FliFast to actually begin reading).

(Family took priority for me today, as it always will. New threads on AA 587/A300 and the Shame of TWA start tomorrow.)

Jetblaster

shackone

I'm sure the other members would like to know more about this statement...

From Jetblaster:

"But: after that example, TWA employees should have seen Icahn for what he was and stood up stronger and quicker. They didn't, they conceded and crawled and dragged the rest of the industry wages, work rules and benefits down with them"

I'll ask JB again...what wages, work rules, and benefits took a hit due to TWA pilot concessions?

My memory of those time is of an industry where the top 3 or 4 airlines were having a yearly bragging rights contest over who had the industry-leading contract. One year it was USAir, then UAL, then DAL, etc.

Am I wrong?

Look, JB...if you have a hard on for fighter pilots, give it a break, OK? You should have done better in UPT. Let it go. Move on, as they say. Now that you are one of them there Nordstrom pilots, why worry?

B757200ER

JBlaster, I never supported Bill Compton or his last-ditch, ill-fated decision to sell out TWA and its employees to AA and Don Carty in exchange for $2 million cash and a cushy retirement on Miami Beach. I was never 'Stockholmed', either, because I knew having a former ALPA MEC Chairman and current TWA pilot as CEO wasn't necessarily a good thing. You know as well as I do that those guys play both sides of the fence. But, I had to do my best and toe the company line in the hopes we would survive. I enjoyed my job, but now it is gone. I am not to blame for that, but I am bitter about it, and have every right to be.

How would you like it instead of Arpey, a proven veteran AA manager, you had either Jim Sovich or Ralph Hunter as AA/AMR's CEO?

FliFast

JB,

The NTSB wrote the accident report, not me dumba$$. You may be a rookie in the airline business but my blind neighbor even knows that.

If you truly think there was a cover-up then launch a thread here...a poll.

Do you believe the tragic accident of AA 587 was a result of 4 factors:

1. Rudder overstress due to rudder doublets 2. Lack of knowledge and avoidance of wake turblence. 3. American Airlines pilot training 4. airbus rudder system design

-or-

Do you believe the rudder just fell off and the Us Govt (FAA, NTSB, et al) and AMR, and the French, German, British, and Italian Gov'ts (Airbus Consort) are conspiring to cover it up.

Ask especially the FDX and UPS crews that fly the A300. Start a thread on the cargo side, if you dont , I will. Since everyone is a lost cause compared to you (your words, Mr. I'm holier than thou")...ask the rest of the message board their view. I know, no one is as elite as you...but you have to agree there are pilots here with a lot more experience than you on here about the A300.

It was a tragedy, the loss of lives on AA 587, and with deep respect and remorse, I hope that the study of their accident and their errors will help to prevent future accidents and loss of life. So lay off the whole dancing on graves crap, no one buys it, and we are sick of you putting words in everyone mouth that doesnt agree with you.

Nobody died and left you in charge to "summarize" other people's positions. Who do you think you are in your arrogance to tell people MY position on something. The real tragedy is how there are actually a bunch of AA pilots that are decent respectful people and competent pilots. But militant, arrogant better than thou's like yourself give them the name of SNB.

You are arrogant and your nonsensicle babble personifies, why AA pilots are called Sky Nazis.

Cant wait to see how your poll will go or how well your flight will go next time you fully deflect the rudder three times at 250 + knots. What's wrong , cat got your tongue.


At least you keep us laughing with your post, I gotta hand it to ya..thanks.

shackone

Jetblaster...I haven't seen your defense of your bloviating about how TWA somehow affected other pilot's wages, etc.

Rather than starting a history class, why don't you answer that question first?

jetblaster

The point, if you will re-focus and remember, is that the NTSB is conflicted and that Airbus had an inappropriate role in the investigation and steered conclusions.

[quote]If you truly think there was a cover-up then launch a thread here...[\quote]

I intend to. Some A300 pilots at AA did an incredible job of collecting reams of independent data on the aircraft and a lot of the issues. I am attempting to contact them to collect their data, it is taking me a bit longer than I'd hoped, but it will start as soon as I get it sorted.

First of all, the problems with the A300 go beyond what may have happened with AA 587. You will not see me make guesses at "what really happened" on AA 587, because the investigation is incomplete. The criticism from the A300 pilots is that the NTSB did not fully investigate a variety of areas. Their data is very compelling and ought to make any intelligent pilot think.


[quote]Ask especially the FDX and UPS crews that fly the A300. [\quote]

Yes, you can begin with the crew that was supposed to fly the Fed Ex jet last November, the one where the rudder was deteriorated and delaminated, found only because mechanics actually accidentely broke the rudder doing another maintenance procedure. You can ask them if they would have been willing to go fly that Fed Ex aircraft after several inspections using Airbus advocated process failed to reveal the full extent of the damage and they then used ultrasound to find that the rudder was rotten to the core. You can then ask them if they would've enjoyed flying at altitude, like Air Transat 961, and have that rotten rudder disintegrate and cause enough flutter to nearly rip the tail off. You can ask them if the phrase "loads approaching the same loads as experienced on AA 587" sends a chill down their spines.

[quote]Since everyone is a lost cause compared to you (your words, Mr. I'm holier than thou")...ask the rest of the message board their view. I know, no one is as elite as you...but you have to agree there are pilots here with a lot more experience than you on here about the A300.[\quote]

It is not about elitism (that is for bonus-baby managers.) It is about pulling you head out of your ass and looking at how the real world works, getting the information, acting like a professional and standing up for yourself, rather than crab-walking through your career swallowing everything you are told and running from the hard decisions.

[quote]So lay off the whole dancing on graves crap, no one buys it, and we are sick of you putting words in everyone mouth that doesnt agree with you.[\quote]

You need to go back and read your own words and that of Shackone.

Which is how this whole thing started: a bitter ex-TWA pilot ranting about Sky Nazis and referencing deceased pilots to elevate his own self-worth.

Look: I don't really care how many lukewarm, non-confrontational, contributing-to-the-career-spiraling, failing-to-recognize-failure pilots log in to disagree with me on my approach. My attitude was much different before 9/11 and before I witnessed the exploitation of 9/11 and the shamelessly contrived "investigation" of AA 587. I am one who recognizes, as I said, that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. You guys who want to meet aggressive and outrageous attacks from management on our profession, whether they be outsourcing mainline flying, using bankruptcy to force concessions or exploiting their own failures of security into massive labor concessions and decreased security must realize that what you think is "middle of the road" is actually completely inadequate to maintain the value of the career.

What is truly humorous is the illustration that this type of pilot is very easy to get sidetracked if he or she doesn't like the manner of the messenger. To your own detriment, you get your panties in a wad over your inappropriate defense of a failed company that you used to work for and therefore the facts and the truth is meaningless to this type of pilot. This is how management exploits our group. My approach in this thread clearly shows that this type of pilot, which makes up the majority of our group, by the way, is easily manipulated off-subject simply by poking them in the ego.


See you on the other threads. But hopefully never again in an AA cockpit.

Jetblaster

shackone

Was there an explanation in that rant about your idea that TWA concessions affected other pilot groups?

Of have you just tucked your tail between your legs on this?

shackone

Somehow I think the feeling is mutual...and from the recent posts here, not just from ex-TWA folks.