EXTW

Eastern Airlines?

jetblaster

Wow. Are you serious? Are you really going to attempt to make the case that the pilots of Eastern Airlines caused that airline to go extinct?

Have you ever heard of Francisco Lorenzo, or read "Flying the Line"?

If you have some evidence to support the contention that the pilots of Eastern "burned down the house" then, by all means, share.

Jetblaster

B757200ER

I'll go you one better, since "Flying the Line" leans toward a certain labor bias.

Try reading "Grounded: Frank Lorenzo and the Destruction of Eastern Airlines." Very well written by Aaron Bernstein, a wall street investment banker. An accurate portayal of the factual, willful destruction of a major air carrier just to show labor unions that he could.

FliFast

Re: The demise of one of the greatest airlines : Eastern Airlines. As I recall the IAM-represented mechanics and ground workers drew a line in the sand with F.Lorenzo because he was bleeding Eastern's assets dry and shifting them over to non-union Continental. The EAL pilots sympathy striked with the mechanics et al. because they also drew a line in the sand to stop the corporate raiding practices of Francisco Lorenzo. I can't see how this can be considered radical or militant. What I was surprised at was how the White House under Bush number 1 did not intervene in the strike or the buildup of assets to Continental based out of Houston, TX. (what's the name of the airport in Houston, again ?

Back in 1985, both Carl Icahn and F.Lorenzo approached TWA. At the time Mr. Lorenzo had a proven bad record, Mr. Icahn did not in the airline business. Faced with what it thought was the lesser of two evils, TWA chose Uncle Carl, and so Francisco was bought off. Little did the TWA employees know, Mr Icahn would raid TWA over the next 16 years. I'm not sure how this choice of getting into bed with Uncle Carl was made by radicals or militants.

I think in summary at EAL, the employees finally had enough of watching their careers get sold down the river. Unfortunately, and this is just my humble opinion, the events at EAL marked-not the first time in history-but a defined era whereby management moves assets to where they can be operated cheaper and from the cost savings obtained, they reward themselves with bonuses.

Hats off to the EAL employees that stood up to F.L'zo. They did pay the price, but Francisco's days were numbered after that and he hasn't been allowed back since.

Let us not forget the EAL pilots.

FliFast

I have to add my humble opinion on the latest course of this thread, which has nothing to do with AA's long taxi times.

It was mentioned that some of the post-ers on the American Airlines pilot's union website are militant, haters.

I disagree, Yes I disagree. during my short time at AA, most if not all the folks I met there were not "haters".

However, what IS on American's APA C&R Website is a small majority that thinks they are the elite, the untouchables, the pilots that are never wrong and never make mistakes.

One of my fellow co-workers at American, on the previous page, went on to deflect the deplorable posts on the C&R board that wished ill-will to JetBlue on to some other hogwash about contract maintenance. Again, this is quite typical of the small majority in AA's pilot group that will point towards anything other than the facts, when they are in the wrong.

Unnecessarily, this thread took a turn on why American had so many tragic accidents and incidents. Each and every one was tragic and let's leave it at that. Unfortunately for the industry as a whole, most of American's accidents and incidents were due to pilot error, as concluded by the NTSB...period.

However, this small majority will try to deflect blame, because they never make mistakes, they are the elite. Case in point, during the integration of the TWA pilots with the American pilots, APA Negotiations chairman told the TWA pilots they are like Kmart pilots and the American Airlines pilots are like Nordstrom and Saks 5 Avenue pilots and how they deserve to enjoy the windfall from the integration. They are not haters, just more elite than anyone at any other airline.

As a Part 121 Captain, the FARs tell me that I am in command of the airplane that I sign for and that the buck stops with me. If I decide to continue flight into hazardous conditions, if I get lost, if I allow a co-pilot to attempt an approach in 1/8 of a mile visibility, if I disregard GPWS warnings, if I overstress the aircraft, with all these "ifs" there are two things that are certain: 1) the buck stops with me 2) there is a group of bald headed guys at the end of a mahogeny table that want to know what on Earth I was thinking. That's what being a Capt is about, not blaming others or deflecting the issues with smoke and mirrors...that's a job better performed by airline management..so why waste our time here on this forum with that stuff when we have to put up with that crap from "the office".

Finally, remember all the k-mart TWA employees that are inferior to the elite AA employees. Well guess, who does the 737 overhaul maintenance at the Kansas City overhaul base. Outsourced, inferior, former TWA mechanics.

At my current job, while on furlough from AA, we have used MX performed in Miami by a staff of mechanics that were laid off from the local airline and MX performed by Lufthansa and KLM. Hands down, I prefer MX that was performed overseas. Why ? Not because I'm anti-America, but because overseas they charge a little bit more, but they do it right, and because I have to ride in the jet they work on.

My humble opinion is, I don't care who maintains the planes as long as they are competent. What burns me up is when management tries to save a penny or two and uses a MX outfit like the one we used in Miami or anywhere else that is cheap and incompetent. At the end of the day, mgmnt. goes home in their chic german cars, and I'm over the one of Oceans running emergency checklists and trying to find a place to land. Who cares who does the MX, just do it right. NOW, let's get back to the whole taxi time issue and lay off the smoke and mirrors, unless you plan on being a management type.

aa73

well said Fli fast.

shackone

Good idea.

It would seem to me that extended taxi times are the result of one of two things.

One, too many checklist items that could have been accomplished at the gate are being done in the taxi or before takeoff checks.

Or, pilots are intentionally taxing slow. That is an indicator of pilot attitude...and one in this instance that may negatively affect others. Dealing with that is not smoke and mirrors.

jetblaster

FliFast,

Well, you got it half right. But boy did you stumble badly on the second half.

Borman was incompetent and exploited by Lorenzo. Eastern employees saw what was happening and refused to walk to the slaughterhouse. As you said, good for them.

But: after that example, TWA employees should have seen Icahn for what he was and stood up stronger and quicker. They didn't, they conceded and crawled and dragged the rest of the industry wages, work rules and benefits down with them, so they could, as I have stated, work for one more day, one more hour, one more minute. As I have also said, if placed in that situation, we all might have made the same choices, but one thing is clear: they gave up their self-respect in the decision. And they crippled our collective professions. The fact that you reside on furlough and do not see this truth is more evidence that pilots, when faced with a tough labor decision, will rationalize everything into "there is nothing we could do."



You started to use some logic here: there is not irrational "hatred" but a growing number are learning the lessons being taught by a decade of decline and exploitation by management like Don Carty and union "leadership" like Sovich, Darrah and Hunter.

This is a humorous claim; surely you have some evidence to prove your point. Elitist? Let's look at a union leader who changes the union website to include a requirement for his own members to give away their rights to freedom of speech as guaranteed by the law under the Labor Management Relations Disclosure Act of 1958 and consider who is being "elitist."

Or, maybe we need to consider that the current National Officers for APA have been residing in office in definace of an order by the Department of Labor to vacate their office because the DOL ruled their election to be unlawful and ordered it to be re-run. Rather than comply with the federal agency tasked to uphold union member rights to a honest and legal election, Ralph Hunter, Sam Bertling and James Eaton have instead used hundreds of thousands of union membership dues and APA legal resources to delay and defy the order.

No, what your "fellow co-worker" (didn't you say you were on furlough? If so, you are not my co-worker presently) did was NOT "deflect deplorable posts" but instead reminded the poster that there were several people who championed the JetBlu pilots. Your reference to the maintenance issue that CAUSED the NOSE GEAR TO TURN SIDEWAYS endangering the lives of all aboard as a "deflection" and "hogwash" is perhaps the most intellectually dishonest bypass I have seen in a few days. Central American outsourcing caused that incident, and JetBlu and their non-union drones are part of the problem because there is no "watchdog" over there and thus they are used by the ATA for every attempt to beat down safety minimums and cut corners that they want to "try out." (See thread about backside of the clock crew duty day violations by JetBlu pilots for more proof.)

Yes, it was unnecessary. It was because a retired fighter pilot and former TWA pilot was trying to bolster his self-esteem by referencing AA accidents in broad fashion as solely pilot error, intimating that if AA would just do thing the way he did at TWA they might not have such a bad safety record.

This is obviously the most idiotic portion of this post. Accidents are a chain of events and usually caused by many things--poor training, aircraft malfunctions, poor design, improper inspection methods, pilot errors, controller errors, distractions, weather, management pilot-pushing and other factors. Why men like FliFast wish to take up the whip and self-flagellate when EVERY OTHER party in the accident equation not only fiercely defends themselves but also seek to heap as much un-deserved blame on the dead pilot is beyond me, but it speaks to a lack of a grip on reality.

As for the NTSB, FliFast, all I can say is that you are deeply, deeply naive. You really do not know what you are talking about and you need to do research on the issues to which you speak. But, you will not, because in your heart, you are not really a "professional pilot" who will look deeply into the accidents, the issues, the investigations, the NTSB errors and omissions, the third-party analysis and see the real story. You are happy to swallow what the conflicted NTSB and FAA say in their summary or read a few paragraphs in the newspaper but you won;t read the entire NTSB report, the independent criticizm of that report and see the truth. That is your choice, but just realize that you are settling for an "easy out" and living a lie. If you would like to instead invest in your profession and learn the real truth (which will really disturb you and likely **** you off) then you can go back a few posts and view the reading assignment that I gave to Shackone.




Here we go! A charge head-long into Political Correctness and Global Tolerance. Lets break it down to brass tacks: there is a huge difference between MX performed by Luftansa and KLM and some no-name outfit in third-world El Salvadore.

[quote]My humble opinion is, I don't care who maintains the planes as long as they are competent. [\quote]

Yes, and I'm sure the point of the backasswards, incorrectly-installed-by-Central-American-non-english-speaking "mechanics" ont he JetBlu incident that required heroic action by the super-competent cockpit crew whose names were never known is that it was caused by incompetence.

(It is so exhausting dealing with nonsense like Flifast's post...not dealing in facts, making broad and irrelevant statements and completely forgetting the facts, like the nosegear WAS installed INCORRECTLY due to language deficiency and, yes, incompetence.)



And yet, when management and the manufacturer work together to deflect liability for an airline accident where THE ****ING TAIL FELL OFF causing a crash for the first time in known commercial airline history you readily accept the impossible story that "the pilot did it" regardless of the statistical impossibility of the scenario and other facts that cloud this conclusion.

Unless we start thinking, doing real homework and knowing "what we don't know" we will continue to think the world is the way that FliFast thinks it is. Judging by the way our careers have gone in the past six years, with intellect being applied the way it is by the majority of our professional group, we can expect nothing but further concession, pay and work-rule degradation, more and more safety deterioration and ultimate outsourcing to the lowest-paid-pilot willing to do the work.

This is reality. We either need to step into the real world and turn our careers around, or continue along the same path of decline.

Jetblaster


"Fat, Drunk and Stupid is no way to go through life, son."

-- Dean Wormer, Animal House.

aa73

Jetblaster,

Yes, I remember the Jetblue post on C&R... I was the FIRST one to congratulate the crew, and then I got slammed for defending them. That was the last time I checked the thread... after that, more pilots must have chimed in praising the crew, and I missed it. Those guys wishing ill on the crew that did a fabulous job should be ashamed of themselves.

73

jetblaster

I obviously agree and am glad you got on the congrats to them so soon. I just wish we would all stop being so quick to point fingers...at our fellow pilots. Someone described the definition of insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Concessions and moderate treatment of aggressive and unreasonable attacks by management (the manner in which airline pilots have handled the last six or so years of dealings with managements, longer at AA) has resulted in massive decline. Continuing with that approach will result in the same.

Likewise, extreme and quick denunciation of "stupid pilots" by other pilots is self-defeating.

A circular firing squad is another definition of insanity.

Jetblaster