shackone

Theories?

What theories?

Crap is crap...whether is brand A crap, brand B crap, or brand C crap. Your attempt to justify your abominable integration on the basis that it was no worse than another is pretty sad logic.

Considering all the talk here about damage being done to our profession as a whole, try justifying the staple job you did...and then try selling that as something that furthered that profession. Try selling that as a model for future integrations. Want to guess on how that vote will go?

One poster used the term 'sellout'.

The sellout was the stapling of a thousand pilots in deference to a bunch of 2001 new hires. Is this how this profession is to act in the future? Is this the legacy APA wants give to the rest of that profession?

Spanky189

[QUOTE=ironspud;95178]I have read the thread, listened to the bantering, etc... You've hit most of the nails on the head. Great job "ironspud" I'll just ditto you on this one... Alot more to add but will save for a new thread as this one has trailed off...

Ranger

It's the current airline pilot mantra......... "Yaaa me and screw you." We'll happily take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself to further our own cause at the cost of the other guy/gal. It's sad.

aa73

So how is that sellout any different from the sellout SWA pilots gave the Morris boys? After all, SWA stapled a bunch of Morris pilots in deference to a bunch of 1994 SWA hires, right?

How about the sellout DAL gave Pan Am pilots, huh? A bunch of out of seniority A310 and 727 pilots keep their jobs while senior 747 pilots hit the streets? Is that not a sellout?

You're just proving my point - you all like to blame AA/APA on the deal when our deal was really in line with these previous mergers I've been describing. Wait, ours was even more fair - almost an exact copy of the DAL/PAA merger - we only stapled 53%. SWA stapled 100%. So before you accuse us of having the worst integration, why don't you look at SWA/Morris? Or DAL/PAA?

Oh, that's right, because they didn't furlough. Well, a furlough is not the union's doing, it's the company reacting to a crappy economy. i.e., the state of the economy dictates the fairness of the integration.

shackone

I think you are missing what I'm saying.

No integration of the type you crammed down the necks of the TWA pilots is 'fair'.

Nor does it represent the spirit of the so-called profession that some so highly tout on these pages. One of your AA fellow pilots has gone to great length here about how some have, in his opinion, acted in a manner detrimental to the interests of that profession.

My point is that any integration implemented such as your APA-TWA integration is a naked refutation of those professional principles.

There was nothing good about that deal. If you think so, let's ask the pilots in those companies currently wondering about their status in the event of one of the rumored mergers. I have some simple ones for them.

"How much seniority are you willing to give up"? Will it really bother you to be stapled on the bottom"?

The issue isn't one of whether or not the TWA cramdown was better or worse than some other lousy deal. They were all bad from the perspective of our profession. We can't have folks thumping their chests about professionalism (as has been so obviously the case here) and then turning right around to disadvantage others in the same profession strictly on the basis of greed.

av8r4aa

I think I can help settle this:
THERE ARE NO WINNERS DURING A MERGER.
All employees lose something. There is no
right answer to a "perfect" merger.
Both sides will fight for their best interest.
Somewhere along the way one party feels slighted.

I feel that the TWA folks got the short end of the stick.
The pilots were cut off at the knees and the Flight Attn.
are totally gone. Most of the origional TWA staff are out of a job.

The only true winners here are the scummy lawyers.

That is my 1 dollar and 295 cents worth.

aa73

Thank you, that's exactly what I've been trying to say. I am not setting out to prove that our deal was fair: it clearly wasn't. That unforyunately happens in most mergers when there are two different unions involved - and in some cases, the same union.

All I'm trying to point out is that you don't hear a squeak about the other "unfair" integrations - only about ours. And yet, ours was not quite as damaging seniority-wise as the others were... but ours is the one everybody yells about simply because of the massive furloughs involved. You don't hear about the others because they were never furloughed.

No chest thumping here at all. The deal was definitely unfair.

FliFast

AA73, I've read most of your posts, and most of them seem reasonable and respectful. I don't have a personal issue with you.
But I'm not sure the whole story about the AA/TWA merger has been told.

AA took for the most part 100% of TWA's assets. Afterwhich, it's true that they may have sold them off for cash or terminated leeses to save money (Worldspan, LGA/DCA Gates, Pratt-powered 767/757s, etc), but only 8-9% of the TWA employees are still employeed at AMR with little or no seniority. Over 90% of the pre-merged TWA employees have been laid off or their jobs were eliminated.

At Pan Am, of the assets they did take-A310s/B727s-those folks were ALL retained albeit at a reduced (not stapled) seniority. And then later Pan Am sued Delta and ALPA and won, thus proving that their intergration was in violation of ALPA rules for a merger. I realize AA pilots are represented by the APA and SW's are represented by their own in-house union. But my point is, to say the the PAA/DAL was an unfair integration and a judge agreed.

Air Cal was given for the most part DOH, the RENO guys were stapled, and the TWA guys were just plain steam rolled. Almost 50 % of the TWA pilots were given a seniority date AFTER the Merger Date (Apr 10th). Approx 1,300 TWA pilots were given a seniority date of June 10th because AMR doesn't recognize TWA's award of seniority at the commencement of new hire training. The net result, junior AA pilots that hadn't even interviewed at AMR until AFTER the merger, are senior to 1,300 or so TWA pilots, some of which had 13 years of service with TWA at the time of merger.

On paper, you are right the SWA/Morris Air intergration seems pretty bad. However, it's my humble opinion, that there are stark differences. Some of the stapled Morris Air Cpts were able to retain their seats and pay until the intergration was complete. No one stapled at TWA retained even their job because they were given a seniority date after AA pilots that had even interviewed on the date of the merger. Secondly, SWA management and their pilot group treated the Morris Air guys respectfully.
The APA, led by their MEC and the Chief Negotiator of the Integration took positions that, the TWA pilots that were stapled were done so because they had no career expectations at TWA. When one the of them was asked at a roadshow in STL "Why are you screwing the TWA pilots with such a bad deal ?" Their answer, "Because we can". And finally, when asked "Isn't the intergration going to result in a windfall for the AA pilots by taking TWA seats, bases and jobs" Their answer, "Yes, because AA pilots are like Nordstrom pilots and TWA pilots are like K-Mart pilots, and as Nordstrom pilots we should be rewarded accordingly". The upshot, when AMR management (which is known for their poor treatment of their employees, in my opinion) took a look at Supplement CC (the blueprint for integrating the TWA pilots with the American pilots) they said it was a "sh$t sandwich". The pot calling the kettle black.

I'm not really sure I remember anyone in SWA's MEC or in DAL's MEC referring to their new partners as inferior pilots not deserving of respectful treatment.

AA73, you mentioned that AA pilot's are known as Sky Nazi's for their contributions after WW II. I don't doubt that there is some truth to that. But with all due respect, I disagree and say it is due to their actions towards their fellow aviators that perform the same job as do they.

Case in point, most of us remember the JetBlue Airbus that made the spectacular emergency landing at LAX with a disabled nose gear. After the event, the TWA message board was filled with "Way to go, good job, glad it worked out". However, the APA's C&R message board (American's pilot union) was filled with too bad they made it, wish they had caught fire, oh well, better luck next time. Simply deplorable, simply simply deplorable...these are guys that do the same job we do, you may not like them ..but wish ill will on them in an emergency situation....deplorable.

This is no means a slam against you, again your posts seem reasonable and respectful. But allow more of the story to be told in conjunction with your posts.

aa73

Flifast,

All good points, and I agree with most. My only intent was to show that our seniority integration, when you look at it, was 47% integrated at 1:8 and 53% stapled. I was comparing those numbers with the numbers of the other mergers I described.

As far as attitude, you're right on. The AA pilot group is infamous for eating its young - whether they are new hires or employees from a merger. The term "Sky Nazi" has been modified from its original meaning (the one I described from WW2) to probably reflect the current pilot group.

I never agreed with the "holier than thou" attitude APA had during the whole fiasco. I spoke out against them several times, and was made fun of. I defended you guys (TWA) every chance I had, questioning whether we were acting in the best interest of unionism and the brotherhood. I was again ridiculed and basically told, "we bought 'em, they shold all go to the bottom. we don't owe them squat." When I would point out that if someone buys AA, we will also all go to the bottom, they'd laugh and say, "yeah right, who's gonna buy aa. and even if it does happen, fine, we'll go to the bottom, who cares."

In other words, I didn't condone the attitude they presented, and many TWA pilots have asked me why I didn't pursue it further and gain support for an attempt at a recall of the president, or the base chairman. The answer is, a) you need a majority vote to do that - and I was the minority, for sure... and b) even with a new president/base chairman, the same attitude would prevail regardless of who's in office - they almost all think alike.

Simply put, folks, yes you did get the short end, no questions asked. But when others present this as the most unfair integration, I think you are referring more to the crappy treatment and attitudes from the APA than from the actual physical integration itself - which has proven to be no worse than the others in the industry I've pointed out.

P.s. During the Jetblue incident at LAX, I was the ONLY ONE on C&R who congratulated the crew and the fine job they did - and yes, I was ridiculed.

Happy new year
73

FliFast

AA73,

New Years wishes to you...let's get back to issues that maybe we can change.