jetblaster

>>>B-Scale.

Why don't you happily paint that pig pretty?<<<

I already addressed this--a failure on the part of the in-house, emasculated, "lap-dog" company union that American management successfully separated from ALPA (with the assistance of ego-maniacal ALPA President Clancy Sayens) in 1963...APA.

The B-Scale was the obvious result of an isolated union dominated by milk-fed "company" pilots mainly based in Chicago and Dallas, set apart from the rest of the professional masses that would've enhanced and encouraged a more broad approach to professional goals; instead, greedy elder pilots were convinced to sell out not only their "young" ...but the rest of the profession.

However...as I also pointed out...AA pilots stepped to the plate to CORRECT this mistake, tossing out the corrupt Fred Vogel and his ilk, and Rich Lavoy and the "B-Scale Pilots" brought the "fix" to the B-scale at AA. So...they cleaned up their mess, as it were.

This is in stark contrast to the way the TWA concessions just kept coming...and the mindset continues even today on the APA Negotiating Committee.

(By the way, the B-Scale and the fix happened before my time.) But, I am a student of the industry and can tell you that the B-scale example still sticks in the craw of a lot of AA pilots and fully 31% of our group remembers. Unfortunately, 69% don't remember it and could care less, they react based on fear or selfishness. And, the TWA Management Helpers aren't helpful to the cause of reclaiming lost ground...because all they know is how to enhance their own personal resumes by serving as facilitators for concession in the hopes of a management job.

(It should be noted that there is ripe soil for sellout-leaning pilots at AA, as the 1997 Negotiating Committee was rewarded for selling out their membership's SCOPE clause; 100% of that team and all National Officers save the APA President (who was apparently unable not only to claim a job in management but unable to return to the cockpit for at least ...ahem...28 days...) were rewarded with management jobs (Some names? Sure, let's give "credit" where "credit" is due: Ed White--Check Airman; Bob Johnson-Employee Relations; Ralph Hunter--Check Airman; Carl Battis-Base Manager--LAX; Fred Bates--AMR Cockpit Security; etc.)

The trend continues, as recent Chairman of the APA Communications Committee--Steve Blankenship--was rewarded for his "work" at APA with a job in AMR Corporate Comm.

So, for a guy like former TWA Vice President and subsidiary President Keith Bounds, who ended his career prior to furlough as APA St. Louis Chairman, it was a clear motivation to use his position of trust as a pilot rep to sell out his members for management gains in the hopes of a reward from AMR.

Poor Keith...the AMR stepping-stone didn't pan out. So, he sold out his membership for nothing.

Shackone...why not start another thread on this subject...I've got plenty more?

Jetblaster

aa73

B-scales were (are) the poison of the industry. However, one important point not well known that must be mentioned - one of the reasons AA pilots caved to B-scales was because UAL pilots laid the groundwork in accepting their version of the most concessionary contract in airline history exactly one year prior - the dreaded "Blue Skies" contract. Once that contract was signed, the rest of the industry followed suit - and the next one was AA and the B-scale. For reference, it is told in "Flying the Line, Part 2."

Shackone - again, our "Sky Nazi" label comes from AA's association with the Luftwaffe during the Air Transport Command years - not from what you call "arrogance" (although I recognize there is quite a bit floating around here.)

shackone

Then you are a lousy student.

In an earlier post, you accused the TWA pilot group of actions that negatively impacted other's careers.

Nothing impacted the initial careers of other airline pilots as much as the B-Scale...and you APA'ers are responsible for that.

The 2003 APA concessionary pay cut exceeded anything that happened at TWA during the Icahn years. Yet you want to paint the TWA union efforts in a negative light. Why? When the crunch comes, the typical union has three choices...accept concessions in order to keep as many pilots as possible on the property...or stonewall the company and take the furlough hit...or strike.

TWA chose to take pay cuts to keep guys working.

USAir did the opposite...stonewalled and took extremely heavy furloughs.

Eastern struck...and went out of business.

Which decision model do you think will find most favor with most airline pilots?

________

Is there some reason why you continue to avoid defending your bloviating about rudder use?

Spanky189

I'll have to second the "Sky Nazi" label. Of the four guys I know well that work for AA, 3 have that 'holier than thou' attitude. Aside, the fourth is a great guy whom I have a great time flying with on the outside.

US Air guys are a close second as they walk into negtiations acting as if they are saving AW trying to dictate the merger of the senoirity lists when they were...strugglin' ! [This should probably be another thread so I'll stop there]

jetblaster

Shackone,

Since you seem to have extra time on your hands, after the holidays I will start a "What TWA did to the profession" thread,

...as well as a "AA 587" thread.

As for rudder use, we can begin with the warnings and cautions that Airbus included about rudder use (none) and review at least one instance where the A300 manual actually instructed pilots to conduct "alternating sideslips" (abnormal for LND Gear Not Down and Locked).

Perhaps you and whoever reads that thread will get an education on the corruption behind the "blame the pilot" liability escape-hatch that the manufacturers, airlines and government use in aviation accidents as the first priority for "findings", something most of us assume is relatively above-board...but after paying close attention to this AA 587 investigation for the past five years, I can tell you, it is rotten to the core; then, we can discuss what you think you know and what you really don't know about the way AA pilots were instructed in the AAMP program; then we can discuss rudder ratio and rudder pedal problems with the A300; the manner in which the accident aircraft on AA 587 had experienced the worst case of lateral loading in the history of the airline (severe turbulence in 1994, causing 47 injuries to passengers) likely damaging the tail; how that probable damage was not found because Airbus insists on visual or coin tap testing exclusively on A300/A310 aircraft; how the accident aircraft lug was found--by using ultrasound--in its original certification test to be damaged and a unique and never-used-again barbaric "patch" was used on the lug, featuring the drilling of 21 metal bolts through the composite carbon monolithic structure in a manner that a composite engineering department head at Va Tech described as "idiotic."

Then we can review the statement of Bob Benzon, NTSB Air Safety Chief, who opened the NTSB hearing on AA 587 with the statement: "Due to the filter (still in place despite an order by the FAA years before to remove it) between the flight controls and the Digital Flight Data Recorder which filtered out 59 of the required 60 data-points-per-second needed to determine the movements of the control surfaces, we will never know what the flight controls did on AA 587." end quote. (After that, Benzon explained that two "teams" were tasked to "reconstruct" the DFDR data; both teams--you guessed it--were from Airbus.)

So you see, Shackone...you are actually the "poor student" as it is obvious you get your "expert opinion" from the front pages of major newspapers or the glossy, expensive, subsidized-by-manufacturers pages of Aviation Week. You read about 4.5 paragraphs into each story, take another bite of your bagel and turn the page...just like most other pilots...and think you are "up to speed." Your hasty willingness to ignore or be ignorant of all of the other factors of an accident and brazenly deride dead pilots for their foolish
"pilot error" and thump your chest about your own prowess is particularly distasteful and I will never understand the motivation for a pilot to say such things about other pilots.

See you next year.

Jetblaster

PS--spanky, we all have our *******s...every airline has them. Most AA pilots are nice guys who have taken it in the shorts just like the rest of the industry...so lighten up on your own, bud.

wild4theuniform

Not to veer off-topic here, but I met the widow of a poor 40-something year old man who was killed while sleeping in his bed after working the nightshift as a NYC civil servant (sanitation, I think). AA587 hit his house which was basically obliterated. How his wife, daughter and dog escaped is a miracle. She described the experience to me the other night and I'm not ashamed to say I was crying not only for what she had to endure, but for the ultimate insult. 5 years later, AA and Airbus are STILL fighting over who's gonna pay out the lawsuit $$, neither one admitting guilt of any kind, while coming to her lawyer with some obscene low-ball figure. VERY SAD.

shackone

Now that was some world class bloviating!

Enough of playing dodgeball!

Just explain your remark about how to use the rudder in unusual attitude recoveries.

jetblaster

Yes, I have met and talked with Gerri, as well as several other family members who are seeking all the facts in the case.

Another ugly facet of the "process" is that, in the case of AA 587, Airbus keeps wanting to stop discovery of evidence (essentially because they have major things to hide about their certification of the A300, according to reliable sources in Europe) that are actually revealed in documents that Airbus has been ordered to produce. Airbus keeps asking for a stop to offer the remaining litigants--as I understand it, 12 families left in wrongful death and 23 for injuries--to bring all parties back to the judge's office in NY for a "conference" so Airbus can offer them one more lowball offer. This is to drag it out, make life tough on the grieving family and essentially "fatigue" them into settling.

The judge in the case is an eccentric 84-year-old man who absolutely wants to avoid a trial...and the resultant public revelation of all the Airbus fraud and lies.

This is (apparently) important to Airbus because the tail on the A300-600R is around 30% weaker than the certification numbers require, among other "problems."

Jetblaster

jetblaster

Tell you what, you fellow-pilot-condescending rookie...

...why don't you go to the NTSB website and read the entire transcript of the AA 587 hearing. Read the docket.

Then read the first letter sent by A300 pilots at AA, noting several areas of concern:

http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Publi...ed%20final.doc

Then, read the history of public knowledge of that concern by the A300 pilots, who asked that the aircraft be screened for rudder and vertical fin composite delamination and flaws prior to continued flight...because they were concerned it might happen again:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...8/ai_n10776234

http://aviation-safety.net/news/news...03%25&sort=ASC

...and see the arrogant NTSB and FAA dismiss the pilots concerns:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...16/ai_87385511

Well, well, well...now read how, indeed, additional problems were found, tail cracks that were undiscovered for four years...and more...

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/...00s/index.html

If you like, read about the failure of the Air Transat rudder last year:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...436374,00.html

...or the Fed Ex rudder disintegration and the obvious--finally--finding by the NTSB that Airbus is absolutely CRAZY when it comes to their insistence on the ineffective inspection protocol for A300s and A310s:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s-rudder_x.htm

Then...once you have done your homework and are ready for some serious discussion on real issues--not just what you can "wing" from your past remembrances of whatever you learned in Starfighter school or some off-the-cuff smirking remark...we'll talk.

If you like, while I am enjoying the holidays, you can begin to explain how rudder use should be used--in your mind--in unusual attitude recoveries. Since you seem to be so pre-occupied with the subject--which is a red-herring in the AA 587 case, but certainly worth discussing to dismiss the Airbus/NTSB lies--

...why not just tell us all the right way to do it. Tell all us non-TWA guys how to use the rudder--or not use the rudder, the TWA-Way.

Then, we won't rip the tails off of our aircraft and the world will be a safer place.

Merry Christmas.

Jetblaster

sgrd0q

They are known to be on the cheap side but come on! Don't you think this is a little bit of a stretch?