Logging IRO flight time???
02-26-2013, 02:41 PM
#11
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Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 6,009
I would like to see the FAA's official position on their letterhead or their website on this matter rather than an opinion from say, an attorney.
Last edited by captjns; 02-26-2013 at 02:52 PM.
02-26-2013, 02:46 PM
#12
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Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 107
I recently had a discussion with a fellow coleague and we were talking about logging IRO flight time. Now some guys are logging their IRO time as PIC, while others are logging IRO time as strictly SIC time.
I wish the FAA would just come out with some clear language (never gonna happen) concerning logging of IRO time. In the mean time, I just follow the most conservative means of logging IRO time. I'm not saying what I do is gospel, but it's what I can explain intelligently referencing my company FOM coupled with the absence of clear cut language from the Fed's. I log IRO time as IRO and total time, not PIC or SIC. In other words, I treat IRO as it's own separate animal.
My question is: Is it acceptable to log IRO time as PIC?
In my opinion, no. You didn't sign for the plane, your not PIC. I'm not gonna address ambiguous regs about "acting PIC", your not the PIC, bottom line, IMHO.
Do the Major/Legacy airlines dispute this flight time in the log books?
I wouldn't put myself in a position where I would have to dispute this. I work for a major and have heard of some folks not getting hired because of logbook falsification with regards to the manner in which IRO time was logged, specifically logging it as PIC.
All our FO's are typed and qualified in the aircraft and are flying in the left seat, but are not the one's that signed their names as the PIC.
All Part 121 airlines from my understudying have to Type their pilots in equipment. You actually answered your question...."but are not the one's that signed their names as the PIC".
My concern is that when we go to an interview (i.e. SWA, UAL, UPS, FEDEX) are they going to frown upon this practice??
Your concerns are warranted. Just be ready and able to explain your logbook. Try not to paint yourself in a corner where you are doing the "dance". Thorough research of the company application and flight times requirement should guide you in the right direction.
Such a grey area......
It's really not. If you are struggling with how you should log the time, then your gut is telling you not to log it as PIC, IMO. My grandma once told me..."If it's to good to be true, it probably is." This simple advice has served me fairly well.
Seabass
I wish the FAA would just come out with some clear language (never gonna happen) concerning logging of IRO time. In the mean time, I just follow the most conservative means of logging IRO time. I'm not saying what I do is gospel, but it's what I can explain intelligently referencing my company FOM coupled with the absence of clear cut language from the Fed's. I log IRO time as IRO and total time, not PIC or SIC. In other words, I treat IRO as it's own separate animal.
My question is: Is it acceptable to log IRO time as PIC?
In my opinion, no. You didn't sign for the plane, your not PIC. I'm not gonna address ambiguous regs about "acting PIC", your not the PIC, bottom line, IMHO.
Do the Major/Legacy airlines dispute this flight time in the log books?
I wouldn't put myself in a position where I would have to dispute this. I work for a major and have heard of some folks not getting hired because of logbook falsification with regards to the manner in which IRO time was logged, specifically logging it as PIC.
All our FO's are typed and qualified in the aircraft and are flying in the left seat, but are not the one's that signed their names as the PIC.
All Part 121 airlines from my understudying have to Type their pilots in equipment. You actually answered your question...."but are not the one's that signed their names as the PIC".
My concern is that when we go to an interview (i.e. SWA, UAL, UPS, FEDEX) are they going to frown upon this practice??
Your concerns are warranted. Just be ready and able to explain your logbook. Try not to paint yourself in a corner where you are doing the "dance". Thorough research of the company application and flight times requirement should guide you in the right direction.
Such a grey area......
It's really not. If you are struggling with how you should log the time, then your gut is telling you not to log it as PIC, IMO. My grandma once told me..."If it's to good to be true, it probably is." This simple advice has served me fairly well.
Seabass
02-26-2013, 02:52 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 548
Legally is one thing, if you need to make yourself feel bigger, better, go ahead and log it.
If OTOH, you find yourself in an interview trying to justify it, you wasted time and money trying to get a new job that you will most likely not get.
Good luck!
If OTOH, you find yourself in an interview trying to justify it, you wasted time and money trying to get a new job that you will most likely not get.
Good luck!
02-26-2013, 03:01 PM
#14
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Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
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At the end of the day, if one has been with CAL, UAL, whenever, they obviously meet the requirements to haul freight with purple.
So what's the point of putting questionable time in the logbook that may bare unanswerable questions? Keep it simple, and keep it honest.
So what's the point of putting questionable time in the logbook that may bare unanswerable questions? Keep it simple, and keep it honest.
02-26-2013, 03:02 PM
#15
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Posts: 758
02-26-2013, 03:21 PM
#16
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Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
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It is important to remember that we are dealing with logging of flight time only for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the SIC is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC under Part 121.
I think some applications request IRO time listed as such too. That said, unless FED EX, or SWA request the same, then there's no way around the issue.
02-26-2013, 03:34 PM
#17
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For us, the captain designates an IRO to act as PIC when he goes to rest. IRO has to log start/end time he acted as PIC and sign the release.
I'm still not logging it as PIC, though. Pandora's Box in an interview.
I'm still not logging it as PIC, though. Pandora's Box in an interview.
02-26-2013, 03:42 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,134
Sure, flying heavy/int'l at airline A is the same as B, and C.
But not EVERY pilot hired at L-UAL or L-CAL had 1000 TPIC. Which also means they can't even fill out the purple app.
02-26-2013, 04:21 PM
#19
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B-756 F/O
Posts: 56
IRO
All good points fellas!
It's true that this is a double edged sword.
At the end of the day, I know that this might land me that almighty interview I've been wishing for, but at the same time; this might also end that same interview short.
I think I will just continue logging my time as SIC.
Thanks for your input everyone!
Seabass
It's true that this is a double edged sword.
At the end of the day, I know that this might land me that almighty interview I've been wishing for, but at the same time; this might also end that same interview short.
I think I will just continue logging my time as SIC.
Thanks for your input everyone!
Seabass
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