horrido27

Can a few of you guys come over the CAL/UAL Merger Section and comment on some of the "crap" in out TA.

One of the things in the TA is this=

20-K-6-f A Short Call Reserve who is given an assignment that requires an intervening FAR rest period does not require the minimum notification requirements of a Long Call Reserve or a contractual Off-Duty Period.
20-K-6-f-(1) Example: A Short Call Reserve whose assignment begins at 0700 and ends at 2100 may be released from the assignment at 2000 and given an assignment that begins at 0600 the next day.
20-K-6-f-(2) Example: A Short Call Reserve whose assignment begins at 0300 and ends at 1700 may be released from the assignment at 1300 and given a flying assignment that reports at 2300.
20-K-6-f-(3) Example: A Short Call Reserve whose assignment begins at 0600 and ends at 2000 may be released from the assignment at 0700 and given a flying assignment that reports at 1700.


I'm wonder if you allow any of this in you PWA.. especially example (3). At CAL, it's called 'Double Pumping' and alot of us have been trying to fight it for a long time~
Yet, there it is.. in Black & White. In our TA.

Thank You ALPA (not)

Thank You Delta Guys...
Motch

80ktsClamp

I've never heard of anything like that happening here... What happens more is international pilots not subject to whitlow getting assigned stuff late in the call period that wouldn't be legal if it were domestic.

Bucking Bar

Where's the eight hours of rest in that? Somewhere is a drive to the airport, meal, etc ... . There is a legitimate safety / FAR issue here, as written.

blue vortex

Here at DAL they could theoretically do this but I have never heard of it. Generally a long call pilot or other SC reserve would get the trip based on our reserve utilization order. Even if no other reserve was available, they probably would greenslip the trip (premium pay it).
I have been analyzing the TA to help my brother who is a UAL pilot. I strongly favored our TA in June but this UCAL TA is a real POS. The reserve rules are horrendous compared to DAL's. Moving days off, more reserve days, field standby, lower guarantee, etc. You guys need to vote it down and insist on getting the DAL contract nearly verboten. Another atrocity is UCAL being 8.5% behind us in pay all of 2013. We at DAL support your effort to do better than this-- vote it down.

80ktsClamp

Yep.... I could see approving this if they held the line on scope, but they didn't.

Milehighrabbi

At Delta, a Short Call assignment is twelve hours long (say 0600-1800), and the pilot must be in the vicinity of the airport (unofficially defined as two hours, but they are reasonable about traffic on the 405 in LA, or blizzards in MSP, etc).

At any time during your short call period, you may be released to Long Call (12 hour call out), and given a trip assignment.

I was sitting a short call from 0600-1800 (if memory serves), and was contacted by crew skeds at 0800 and assigned a trip that reported at 2000 (or so, I'm going from memory). It was legal, because technically they were releasing me from Short Call, and assigning me a Long Call trip. I confirmed it with our ALPA scheduling guy in Herndon (who does an awesome job, by the way).

So long story short: they can't double dip, per se, because we still need the entire 12 hours, not just an FAR minimum rest.

Clear as mud?

horrido27

^ Ok, thanks~
So it can happen, but if it does, it requires 12 hours of rest... and this is coming from a short call reserve who has a 12 hour duty period.
Got it.

Next questions.
I'm looking at your PWA and can't find the Flight Period for anything other than International.
SO.. Here are my 3 questions.
1) Can a domestic crew be scheduled for a 8:30 Flight Duty Period within a 11-12 Duty Day?
2) You guys fly some of the same trips we do.. NYC (JFK vs. EWR) to LHR, AMS, DUB, - are they all crewed with 3?
3) What do those trips pay? Our LHR's pay in the high 15's to low 16's (with 3 man crew on the 75) the AMS pays 16:30 with a 2-3 man crew.. and the DUB pays 14:45 with 2 man crew.

Thanks
Motch

80ktsClamp

1- No... there is no domestic augment (nor augment on international "south" turns). There have been some exceptions negotiated for military charters.
2- DUB is 2 man- The others are 3.
3- That sounds about the same.

forgot to bid

You're right, DUB is the only one.

There was a time when JFK-LHR was a two man trip in the evenings and a three man in the mornings. Of course there was EDI and SNN but they're not in the DEC bid package and I don't know if they're summer only or we don't do them anymore.

Basically, I used to like the two man operations but I've been on the 88 for so long now that it really does feel like I once flew at this other airline that had big jets and we flew across the ocean and served as a speed bump for 747s, 777s, and just about everything else crossing the pond. i never passed anyone.

horrido27

Ok, just to clarify question 1.
You do not allow more than 8 hour un augmented domestic flying?
Can you point me into the direction where I'd find that in your PWA.

Here is something we have in our TA-
5-B-3 A Pilot shall not be assigned or reassigned to more than eight (8) hours Flight Time during any unaugmented Duty Period, except that a Pilot may be assigned or reassigned to up to nine (9) hours Flight Time during an unaugmented Duty Period that contains two (2) or more Flying Flight Segments, that does not contain ANF, and that reports between 0500 and 1959 (using the time frame of reference in effect for the Duty Period in accordance with Section 5-E-1).

I asked the question today to my "union" if a 2 man crew could fly a 2 segment day.. 5:15, sit and then 3:15. Total Duty time of 12 hours and total flight time of 8:30.
Answer-
Yes.
When I asked how this happened, I was told that the Union couldn't "fight" scientific evidence. That FAR117 allows it.

So I'm wondering- you guys negotiated a new PWA after part 117 was published. How did you work it?

Thanks again for your time (all who have been answering). We've got an uphill battle on our hands at UCAL~

Motch