DL/NW relative seniority moving forward
07-22-2012, 01:18 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
DL/NW relative seniority moving forward
Can a DL guy give me some general information about relative seniority moving forward with your merger? At US the Nicolau award was close to relative position for many of us as of 2007, but moving forward there is a big shift of relative position from east to west. For example a friend of mine went from a projected #4 at retirement to a projected #454. For 1988 hires the it is even greater. Anything like that happen with DL/NW? Thanks.
07-22-2012, 01:59 PM
#3
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
If you are talking about one pilot group being older on average than the other and the effect that has based on attrition imbalances in the future, then the Delta SLI award recognized that factor. Junior NWA pilots were effectively moved up the relative list using a complicated "pull and plug" method to account for the age differences.
Things haven't quite worked out as intended though since the demographic predictions were that the older NWA guys would retire at roughly age 62. Almost none have. They are all working to 65.
Here's a snippet of the Delta arbitrator's award:
Another element the Board has considered in building the list is the notable, and
relatively imminent, attrition of a sizable number of Northwest pilots, as contrasted with
the Delta group. The abundance of older pilots on the Northwest side is matched by a
considerably younger Delta contingent; a phenomenon accounted for by early
retirements of Delta pilots in the months and years leading up to that Company’s
bankruptcy.
Things haven't quite worked out as intended though since the demographic predictions were that the older NWA guys would retire at roughly age 62. Almost none have. They are all working to 65.
Here's a snippet of the Delta arbitrator's award:
Another element the Board has considered in building the list is the notable, and
relatively imminent, attrition of a sizable number of Northwest pilots, as contrasted with
the Delta group. The abundance of older pilots on the Northwest side is matched by a
considerably younger Delta contingent; a phenomenon accounted for by early
retirements of Delta pilots in the months and years leading up to that Company’s
bankruptcy.
17 The DAL committee contends its proposed Status and Category/Ratio
proposal should be implemented without any consideration of this Attrition imbalance.
Attrition, it argues, should not be regarded an “equity” to be somehow utilized in
balancing perceived imbalances in the list. The Northwest pilot representatives, for
their part, vigorously urge the Board to account for the career expectations inherent in
the advancement potential for NWA pilots, due to the prospect of large blocks of older
pilots soon to be leaving the Northwest workforce.
The record does not permit a precise calculation of the number of NWA pilots in
proposal should be implemented without any consideration of this Attrition imbalance.
Attrition, it argues, should not be regarded an “equity” to be somehow utilized in
balancing perceived imbalances in the list. The Northwest pilot representatives, for
their part, vigorously urge the Board to account for the career expectations inherent in
the advancement potential for NWA pilots, due to the prospect of large blocks of older
pilots soon to be leaving the Northwest workforce.
The record does not permit a precise calculation of the number of NWA pilots in
this position nor is there absolute certainty about the magnitude of the incremental
imbalance of potential attrition favoring the pre-merger Northwest pilots.
18 There is no
question, however, the imbalance exists. Consequently, there is no question that, in this
particular case, an unadjusted ratio approach would meaningfully impact a wide range
of career expectations in a manner we consider contrary to the overall goal of the ALPA
Merger Policies.
The NWA representatives correctly observe that attrition favors the interests of
all Junior pilots: When senior pilots depart, without regard to their pre-merger
affiliation or how the seniority lists are combined, additional promotional opportunities
will become available to those pilots ranked below them:
This factor stands as one of the contributions the Northwest Pilots will
make to the merged group’s advancement prospects. For Junior Pilots,
the hundreds and hundreds of Northwest Pilots leaving active employment
in the approaching years function as firm orders for growth aircraft – they
mean promotions. The coming attrition establishes promotions that are
certain – more certain in fact, than firm orders for aircraft, which can be
renegotiated, canceled or matched with counter-veiling aircraft sales or
the return of planes whose leases are expiring.19
question, however, the imbalance exists. Consequently, there is no question that, in this
particular case, an unadjusted ratio approach would meaningfully impact a wide range
of career expectations in a manner we consider contrary to the overall goal of the ALPA
Merger Policies.
The NWA representatives correctly observe that attrition favors the interests of
all Junior pilots: When senior pilots depart, without regard to their pre-merger
affiliation or how the seniority lists are combined, additional promotional opportunities
will become available to those pilots ranked below them:
This factor stands as one of the contributions the Northwest Pilots will
make to the merged group’s advancement prospects. For Junior Pilots,
the hundreds and hundreds of Northwest Pilots leaving active employment
in the approaching years function as firm orders for growth aircraft – they
mean promotions. The coming attrition establishes promotions that are
certain – more certain in fact, than firm orders for aircraft, which can be
renegotiated, canceled or matched with counter-veiling aircraft sales or
the return of planes whose leases are expiring.19
There is merit to these observations, and while the “Pull-and-Plug” methodology,
described below, recognizes NWA career expectations by advancing older pilots toward
the front of the line initially; junior Delta pilots are also able to take advantage of the
open slots, increasingly over the years, as the older Northwest pilots retire.
At the same time, the Board rejects the NWA proposal to adopt, as a relevant
community, all such older Northwest Pilots. To do so would be to overweight the top described below, recognizes NWA career expectations by advancing older pilots toward
the front of the line initially; junior Delta pilots are also able to take advantage of the
open slots, increasingly over the years, as the older Northwest pilots retire.
At the same time, the Board rejects the NWA proposal to adopt, as a relevant
end of the Seniority List so substantially, and for so long, as to devitalize any hopes of
achieving fairness and equity. Moreover, as will be noted, one may not fairly ignore
other reasonable projections in evidence that must also be considered in assessing
overall career expectations.
Attrition and Other Career Expectations
To properly account for attrition considerations, the Board adopts a
“Pullout/Plug in” tool by which Northwest Pilots are removed, temporarily, from the
pre-merger NWA seniority list. The effect of that is to elevate all NWA pilots junior to
those removed “up the ladder.” At that point, the Status and Category ratios in the four
categories are calculated and applied. That done, each pulled out pilot is reinserted into
the integrated list, one number senior to the pilot who was the next junior to that pilot
on the stand-alone NWA list.
We have also concluded that all pilots on long-term sick (12 months or longer)
should be removed from the pre-merger lists in a similar manner and inserted directly
above the next junior pilot on his or her respective pre-merger list.
The “Pull and Plug” mechanism is a powerful adjustment tool, for several
reasons. First, it advances the older pilots well beyond what would have been their
standing on the merged list. In so doing, it invests those pilots with a substantial, if
relatively short-lived, element of super-seniority. By removing older pilots and elevating
junior NWA pilots into those vacated slots, as described above, the “Pull and Plug”
reinvests the junior NWA pilots with the type of bidding power they would have wielded
in the stand-alone Company. This is as it should be. But one must recognize, as well, achieving fairness and equity. Moreover, as will be noted, one may not fairly ignore
other reasonable projections in evidence that must also be considered in assessing
overall career expectations.
Attrition and Other Career Expectations
To properly account for attrition considerations, the Board adopts a
“Pullout/Plug in” tool by which Northwest Pilots are removed, temporarily, from the
pre-merger NWA seniority list. The effect of that is to elevate all NWA pilots junior to
those removed “up the ladder.” At that point, the Status and Category ratios in the four
categories are calculated and applied. That done, each pulled out pilot is reinserted into
the integrated list, one number senior to the pilot who was the next junior to that pilot
on the stand-alone NWA list.
We have also concluded that all pilots on long-term sick (12 months or longer)
should be removed from the pre-merger lists in a similar manner and inserted directly
above the next junior pilot on his or her respective pre-merger list.
The “Pull and Plug” mechanism is a powerful adjustment tool, for several
reasons. First, it advances the older pilots well beyond what would have been their
standing on the merged list. In so doing, it invests those pilots with a substantial, if
relatively short-lived, element of super-seniority. By removing older pilots and elevating
junior NWA pilots into those vacated slots, as described above, the “Pull and Plug”
reinvests the junior NWA pilots with the type of bidding power they would have wielded
that the resultant “bump up” happens
immediately, well before the time of any
adjustment that would accompany actual attrition.
Equity demands that the Northwest pilots’ expectations not be fully foiled by the
merger. Fairness, however, requires some tempering of the potential impact power of
the adjustment mechanism. It would be myopic for this Board to focus solely on the
stand-alone attrition expectations of the NWA pilot group. We accept they may
constitute a legitimate career expectation, but one must also consider other elements
reasonably regarded as potentially dampening those expectations.20 The Northwest
fleet, for example is composed of numerous aircraft of questionable long-term utility.
NWA’s DC-9 fleet is old, inefficient, and likely scheduled for replacement. The exact
timing and extent of that model’s departure is uncertain, but the record is clear that this
portion of the fleet has already been substantially reduced.21 Northwest Airline’s 2000
10K projected the lifespan of the DC-9 aircraft as extending to 2012. Under even the
adjustment that would accompany actual attrition.
Equity demands that the Northwest pilots’ expectations not be fully foiled by the
merger. Fairness, however, requires some tempering of the potential impact power of
the adjustment mechanism. It would be myopic for this Board to focus solely on the
stand-alone attrition expectations of the NWA pilot group. We accept they may
constitute a legitimate career expectation, but one must also consider other elements
reasonably regarded as potentially dampening those expectations.20 The Northwest
fleet, for example is composed of numerous aircraft of questionable long-term utility.
NWA’s DC-9 fleet is old, inefficient, and likely scheduled for replacement. The exact
timing and extent of that model’s departure is uncertain, but the record is clear that this
portion of the fleet has already been substantially reduced.21 Northwest Airline’s 2000
10K projected the lifespan of the DC-9 aircraft as extending to 2012. Under even the
most optimistic case scenario, therefore, this is an aircraft whose time is limited.22
07-22-2012, 02:55 PM
#4
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Boy it's always about the east boys and "their" expectations, forget the 2 bankruptcies and the fact you merged, by god you must retire at the same position you expected the day you got hired.
Forget that Nicolau gave the first 517 positions, twice as many as you had widebody captains, forget that the wests most senior pilot started at number 518. You get 75% of all captain seats going forward, not good enough for you boys, you want 100%. You are disgusting and vile group, everyone knows it.
Forget that Nicolau gave the first 517 positions, twice as many as you had widebody captains, forget that the wests most senior pilot started at number 518. You get 75% of all captain seats going forward, not good enough for you boys, you want 100%. You are disgusting and vile group, everyone knows it.
07-22-2012, 03:19 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
I guess my raw numbers really don't mean anything to someone outside. My friend would retire .1% east stand alone, 8.0% on the Nic. That goes from the very top to the bottom of our small widebody captain range. The guy slotted in front of me would go from 13.7% west only to 7.1% Nic. Kind of hard to compare with fleet disparity and without % numbers. Thanks for the response.
07-22-2012, 03:22 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Boy it's always about the east boys and "their" expectations, forget the 2 bankruptcies and the fact you merged, by god you must retire at the same position you expected the day you got hired.
Forget that Nicolau gave the first 517 positions, twice as many as you had widebody captains, forget that the wests most senior pilot started at number 518. You get 75% of all captain seats going forward, not good enough for you boys, you want 100%. You are disgusting and vile group, everyone knows it.
Forget that Nicolau gave the first 517 positions, twice as many as you had widebody captains, forget that the wests most senior pilot started at number 518. You get 75% of all captain seats going forward, not good enough for you boys, you want 100%. You are disgusting and vile group, everyone knows it.
I think the senior west pilots are among the worst screwed under Nic. He used (IMHO) a ridiculous method for protecting the widebody flying that gave widebody F/O slots to narrow body east captains, hence super seniority.
You really need some kind of help. And everybody knows it, except you.
07-22-2012, 03:27 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
The NWA representatives correctly observe that attrition favors the interests of
all Junior pilots: When senior pilots depart, without regard to their pre-merger
affiliation or how the seniority lists are combined, additional promotional opportunities
will become available to those pilots ranked below them:
This factor stands as one of the contributions the Northwest Pilots will
make to the merged group’s advancement prospects.
Interesting, thanks.
07-22-2012, 04:05 PM
#8
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
[FONT=Georgia][LEFT]If you are talking about one pilot group being older on average than the other and the effect that has based on attrition imbalances in the future, then the Delta SLI award recognized that factor. Junior NWA pilots were effectively moved up the relative list using a complicated "pull and plug" method to account for the age differences.
Things haven't quite worked out as intended though since the demographic predictions were that the older NWA guys would retire at roughly age 62. Almost none have. They are all working to 65.
Things haven't quite worked out as intended though since the demographic predictions were that the older NWA guys would retire at roughly age 62. Almost none have. They are all working to 65.
One problem with the merger is that status quo with regard to equipment and seat was ignored. Relative seniority was favored, then the effect of retirements (which have not happened) skewed the results even further. The result being that with identical relative seniority a Delta pilot was a junior lineholder on a 767 or senior on the MD88. At NWA the equivalent was the A320 and DC9. The most adversely effected were junior lineholders on the 767 which were integrated on the level of f-NWA's narrow body pilots. (FWIW, the NWA side did not acknowledge the 767 as a wide body)
As f-NWA and 767 pilots have been displaced a swap (NWA moving up, DAL moving down) has been slowly occurring as f-NWA pilots equitably bid what their seniority buys them at Delta.
The guys I fly with now are about half those who upgraded from NWA or those who got displaced f-DAL. Have not flown with a f-NWA displacement yet, but I'm sure that happened somewhere.
Collectively, the Delta pilots decided peace and unity were most important. While individual pilots were adversely effected, as group the strategy worked well. (I make more than I would have made on the equipment I held before displacement)
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-22-2012 at 04:16 PM.
07-22-2012, 04:43 PM
#9
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Good post. Due to a combination of factors most pre-merger Delta pilots will need a couple of years to achieve the same relative seniority in equipment and base that they enjoyed in 2008. That makes a 5 to 6 year step backwards. Pay raises have reduced the sting.
One problem with the merger is that status quo with regard to equipment and seat was ignored. Relative seniority was favored, then the effect of retirements (which have not happened) skewed the results even further. The result being that with identical relative seniority a Delta pilot was a junior lineholder on a 767 or senior on the MD88. At NWA the equivalent was the A320 and DC9. The most adversely effected were junior lineholders on the 767 which were integrated on the level of f-NWA's narrow body pilots. (FWIW, the NWA side did not acknowledge the 767 as a wide body)
As f-NWA and 767 pilots have been displaced a swap (NWA moving up, DAL moving down) has been slowly occurring as f-NWA pilots equitably bid what their seniority buys them at Delta.
The guys I fly with now are about half those who upgraded from NWA or those who got displaced f-DAL. Have not flown with a f-NWA displacement yet, but I'm sure that happened somewhere.
Collectively, the Delta pilots decided peace and unity were most important. While individual pilots were adversely effected, as group the strategy worked well. (I make more than I would have made on the equipment I held before displacement)
One problem with the merger is that status quo with regard to equipment and seat was ignored. Relative seniority was favored, then the effect of retirements (which have not happened) skewed the results even further. The result being that with identical relative seniority a Delta pilot was a junior lineholder on a 767 or senior on the MD88. At NWA the equivalent was the A320 and DC9. The most adversely effected were junior lineholders on the 767 which were integrated on the level of f-NWA's narrow body pilots. (FWIW, the NWA side did not acknowledge the 767 as a wide body)
As f-NWA and 767 pilots have been displaced a swap (NWA moving up, DAL moving down) has been slowly occurring as f-NWA pilots equitably bid what their seniority buys them at Delta.
The guys I fly with now are about half those who upgraded from NWA or those who got displaced f-DAL. Have not flown with a f-NWA displacement yet, but I'm sure that happened somewhere.
Collectively, the Delta pilots decided peace and unity were most important. While individual pilots were adversely effected, as group the strategy worked well. (I make more than I would have made on the equipment I held before displacement)
07-22-2012, 04:55 PM
#10
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
I guess my raw numbers really don't mean anything to someone outside. My friend would retire .1% east stand alone, 8.0% on the Nic. That goes from the very top to the bottom of our small widebody captain range. The guy slotted in front of me would go from 13.7% west only to 7.1% Nic. Kind of hard to compare with fleet disparity and without % numbers. Thanks for the response.
Kinda sounds like what happened in the SWA/AAI merger.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
