DL/NW relative seniority moving forward
07-23-2012, 11:13 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,913
Nu,
That was a very good explanation of your perspective, thanks for posting it. How did you lose any relative % with the plug and play? I thought everyone from your side moved up a little initially to offset the more numerous retirements that you had on your side in the next few years.
Most guys will take the metric that most negatively affects them and dwell on that, be it DOH or relative or whatever. Very few will consider all the metrics involved and come up with a good explanation of how they were really affected.
Still many others will blame whatever backwards movement they have experienced on just the SLI, while not taking into account decisions that the company has made since that time, like the SLI can save them from any negative effects down the road.
From my perspective, I lost around 2% relative, but make it back up over the course of my career and find myself within 1% of where I would have been had no merger occurred and everything stayed the same. I gained access to different flying and bases closer to where I live, all kind of balances out in some ways.
That was a very good explanation of your perspective, thanks for posting it. How did you lose any relative % with the plug and play? I thought everyone from your side moved up a little initially to offset the more numerous retirements that you had on your side in the next few years.
Most guys will take the metric that most negatively affects them and dwell on that, be it DOH or relative or whatever. Very few will consider all the metrics involved and come up with a good explanation of how they were really affected.
Still many others will blame whatever backwards movement they have experienced on just the SLI, while not taking into account decisions that the company has made since that time, like the SLI can save them from any negative effects down the road.
From my perspective, I lost around 2% relative, but make it back up over the course of my career and find myself within 1% of where I would have been had no merger occurred and everything stayed the same. I gained access to different flying and bases closer to where I live, all kind of balances out in some ways.
It depended on which part of the SILO you fell into.
Nu
07-23-2012, 11:14 AM
#52
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
One other thing on this. It seems clear today, but it wasn't in 2005. Both sides agreed to the ratification of a JCBA as a condition of completing the merger. Several of my west friends have told me that they so feared a SLI with us that they viewed it as a safety stop in case a a bad award.
I fully believe that if we had a contract even in the neighborhood of DL's last contract this would be over. We didn't and we don't. The comprehensive company proposal put out just before the Nic came out was crap and is what they are sticking to. That was 2 years after the merger. Had they not tried to get every nickel out of us, we would have had a joint contract in place before the Nic came out, there was nothing preventing that, and the Nic would have put the last piece of the puzzle in place.
It doesn't seem that it was that way at DL. I know it wasn't easy, but they put the money on the table to get the job done. UA is following your t template, but not having as much success, right?
I fully believe that if we had a contract even in the neighborhood of DL's last contract this would be over. We didn't and we don't. The comprehensive company proposal put out just before the Nic came out was crap and is what they are sticking to. That was 2 years after the merger. Had they not tried to get every nickel out of us, we would have had a joint contract in place before the Nic came out, there was nothing preventing that, and the Nic would have put the last piece of the puzzle in place.
It doesn't seem that it was that way at DL. I know it wasn't easy, but they put the money on the table to get the job done. UA is following your t template, but not having as much success, right?
07-23-2012, 11:25 AM
#53
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Most gains in relative position are gone. The crossover point was soon after the list came out with the bottom majority of AWA guys gaining in relative position very quickly. So an AWA pilot gets better relative position at a bigger airline, with more equipment and route opportunities. The leader of AOL would have about a 15% point immediate increase in relative position if we implemented the Nic today.
.
.
07-23-2012, 12:18 PM
#55
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
The best way to merge is status quo. You get what you had going into the merger.
The NWA merger makes it more difficult for any pilot group to understand "reasonable." Now "reasonable" can include either party's estimate of their future results and frankly, the result encourages speculative exaggeration. It set a bad precedent.
As another poster wrote, what made this merger work is that management put money on the table. When the pilots took the money it obligated them to a process agreement which made the seniority result a fait accompli.
The merger did not turn on fairness. It hinged on greed.
US Air did not put any money on the table and arguably, management benefits greatly by the fact US Air Captains are in most cases making less than Delta First Officers for similar work. Delta paid a high price for peace.
07-23-2012, 12:32 PM
#56
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Good luck, I hope there is a brighter future for your pilot group and you can move forward. No one wins with the status quo.
07-23-2012, 12:37 PM
#57
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
UA is having difficulty with their merger. The DAL/NWA merger might have looked easy from the outside, but it had its moments, but thankfully we were able to press forward, both north and south pilots.
07-23-2012, 12:54 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Typical easthole, manipulating data to prove a point. So let's see, you chose to use the fact that the west has moved backwards to prove how unfair the nicolau is, yet you don't account for the fact that you forcing separate ops is the direct cause of the west's backwards movement. I'll use me as an example. In 2007 when the award came out I was a junior 757 captain, nicolau placed me with junior east narrow body captains. In 2008 I was downgraded and have stagnated, junior guys to me on the east have upgraded. Had you not blocked a contract this disparity would have never had happened, yet today you use this as "proof" the Nic. is flawed. Guys at other carriers might by this BS because they don't know the details, but don't try to sell that crap to me.
Those numbers I used are not the "west moving backwards" numbers. They are the % of the entire west list from over 2 years ago. You've seen the updated Nic award, right?
The west has stagnated from under you. Welcome to my world.
If you were me would you accept the a Kirby contract so that someone else could reclaim there seat?
Cacti, you posted somewhere that you had PTSD. I seriously think you might. Talk to a professional.
07-23-2012, 12:56 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Thanks, we'll need all the luck we can get. And I'm really glad that you guys just finished your second contract after the merger. I know there a lot of stuff going back and forth about it, but that is quite an achievement in this business today.
07-23-2012, 12:57 PM
#60
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The point being that it should not be different.
The best way to merge is status quo. You get what you had going into the merger.
The NWA merger makes it more difficult for any pilot group to understand "reasonable." Now "reasonable" can include either party's estimate of their future results and frankly, the result encourages speculative exaggeration. It set a bad precedent.
As another poster wrote, what made this merger work is that management put money on the table. When the pilots took the money it obligated them to a process agreement which made the seniority result a fait accompli.
The merger did not turn on fairness. It hinged on greed.
US Air did not put any money on the table and arguably, management benefits greatly by the fact US Air Captains are in most cases making less than Delta First Officers for similar work. Delta paid a high price for peace.
The best way to merge is status quo. You get what you had going into the merger.
The NWA merger makes it more difficult for any pilot group to understand "reasonable." Now "reasonable" can include either party's estimate of their future results and frankly, the result encourages speculative exaggeration. It set a bad precedent.
As another poster wrote, what made this merger work is that management put money on the table. When the pilots took the money it obligated them to a process agreement which made the seniority result a fait accompli.
The merger did not turn on fairness. It hinged on greed.
US Air did not put any money on the table and arguably, management benefits greatly by the fact US Air Captains are in most cases making less than Delta First Officers for similar work. Delta paid a high price for peace.
Bar,
Even if every pilot thought that a given SLI was the perfect intergration, there is no way the next group would employ the same ratios or methodology. They may use it as template, but each pre-merger pilot group has nuances that are different than that next. Because of this,, if two parties are not going to use a uniform policy, they will tailor their result accordingly. Of course other side "may" disagree, and that is why we have arbitrated awards by third parties; it keeps the sandbox as clean as possible in the coming years.
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