DL/NW relative seniority moving forward
07-22-2012, 07:59 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
I would add that the pain of the merger shifts around depending on time horizons.
In the short-term (a big slice of which ahs happened already), the pmDAL pilots slide back in terms of domicile and aircraft. I went back 15% in category, as an example. In the medium-term, the NW pilots retirements beneift both rgoups, which the pmNW pilots feel punishes them. From my perspective, it smoothes out the retirement curve, and it helps. In the long-term, the pmDAL side shifts back to providing the majority of retirements for both sides.
Mitigating the benefits for both sides:
-I differ slightly with Bar and Essential in the sense a number of retirements did take place since the merger. It just hasn't helped.
-The problem is that the combined airline has shrunk, and NW had a surplus, of about 250-350 per the arbitration hearings, up to 600 if you listen to some 4th floor types (and who listens to them?). Since they (NW) got credit for 250 retirements before they occured, the pmDAL guys feel they got robbed.
-As we move into a period of greater pmNW retirements, they feel they're getting robbed.
The end result is that we all end up roughly even in terms of relative seniority. We couldn't smooth out every fold of the list, and we couldn't make everyone happy. We just got a list that works well enough. We were smarter than LCC because we let our differences remain differences, and we moved on.
For me, DAL/NW it comes down to
1) accepting the trade of short-term pain for mid-term improvements,
2) the merger making a more secure network,
3) a desire to avoid self-inflicted suffering by trying to modify the past.
In the short-term (a big slice of which ahs happened already), the pmDAL pilots slide back in terms of domicile and aircraft. I went back 15% in category, as an example. In the medium-term, the NW pilots retirements beneift both rgoups, which the pmNW pilots feel punishes them. From my perspective, it smoothes out the retirement curve, and it helps. In the long-term, the pmDAL side shifts back to providing the majority of retirements for both sides.
Mitigating the benefits for both sides:
-I differ slightly with Bar and Essential in the sense a number of retirements did take place since the merger. It just hasn't helped.
-The problem is that the combined airline has shrunk, and NW had a surplus, of about 250-350 per the arbitration hearings, up to 600 if you listen to some 4th floor types (and who listens to them?). Since they (NW) got credit for 250 retirements before they occured, the pmDAL guys feel they got robbed.
-As we move into a period of greater pmNW retirements, they feel they're getting robbed.
The end result is that we all end up roughly even in terms of relative seniority. We couldn't smooth out every fold of the list, and we couldn't make everyone happy. We just got a list that works well enough. We were smarter than LCC because we let our differences remain differences, and we moved on.
For me, DAL/NW it comes down to
1) accepting the trade of short-term pain for mid-term improvements,
2) the merger making a more secure network,
3) a desire to avoid self-inflicted suffering by trying to modify the past.
Both Sink and Bar have points, but some of the nuance has been removed.
It is nearly impossible to determine what "would have happened" and use that as a touchstone for any kind of "what if". Many feel that the DAL/NWA merger was a done deal on the NY Bankruptcy Court steps, years before the actual announcement, and that most events occured within that framework.
Absent that envrionment, there is absolutely no way to know what each company would have done with their staffing or fleet planning.
While it is true on the junior end, NWA pilots typically were in smaller equipment (DC-9, A320), NWA also had a very large widebody percentage (747-400, 747-200s, 747-Fs and 330s) compared to the NB fleet, and they were all "large" widebodies...with a majority in the 300+ seat range. Whereas DAL had exactly zero aircraft with 300+ seats.
Prior to the merger, DAL had (and still has) a handful of 777s and 767-400s. The bulk of their "widebody" fleet was 767-300s, most of which are near the 757-300 in capacity. Even the 777 has over 100 seats less than 747s, and are more accurately grouped with the 330-300. (which NWA had more of, than DAL had 777s)
So Bar is correct, kinda. Junior NWA pilots were typically in the 320 or DC-9 versus the 757. But while a DAL guy might CLAIM he was on the 7ER, in reality, it was mostly plain old 757 flying, with the exception a 767 leg thrown in there here and there.
Their senior guys grabbed the international flying, same as they do everywhere else, while the junior guys are left motoring 4 legs between ATL and MCO on the 757. Unless, of course, you banshed yourself to perma-reserve or an "unpopular domicile".
While NWA did their share of that kind of flying, it was mostly restricted to the 320 and below. Once you hopped into the widebody, you were ON a widebody, every leg, and it was honest to god international flying.
Speaking of the 757...the type of flying NWA did with the 757 was vastly, VASTLY different than what DAL does, despite the fact that the NWA 757 fleet was half the size. At NWA, you didn't have to expend any "seniority" avoiding 4 day trips worth 21 hours comprising 4-5 legs of ATL-Florida turns. NRT and AMS trips were available, consistently, even to the very junior.
NWA WAS slightly overstaffed...but only in the context of DAL workrules. 300-350 NWA pilots worked as instructors (albiet, not all at once), whereas under the DAL PWA, these activities were(are) outsourced (Bar's favorite word) to non-seniority list instructors. Eliminate those jobs, and yea, there would be some excess, but that's not the fault of the NWA side, who fought to keep those jobs for NWA pilots (and the resulting staffing implications), despite bankruptcy. Mind you I am NOT critiquing DAL training, but simply illustrating the priorities of each group.
In this same context, NWA ALPA typically expended it's negotiating capital on QoL items, rather than the straight W2. Sadly, most of these QoL items were jettisoned...very little "cherry picking" actually occured. Like the instructor issue, I am not critqueing the W2 vs QoL choice, but simply illustrating that the two pilot groups had different priorites.
When I first got on the 757 at NWA, I was in the bottom 20 blockholders, and I consistently flew 3 4 day trips, each worth 25+ hours, and many, if not most, of the trips I flew had a HNL overnight. AMS and NRT trips were mine for the asking. I'm now in the 65 percentile (an improvement, you would think), and if I avoid any trips with more than 3 legs/day (something I didn't even have to think about with NWA), I wind up with 4 day trips worth 17-20 hours, and usually have a redeye on the back end, with such exotic, sunny summer destinations like LAS and PHX.
The kind of trips I held at NWA are nothing but a pleasant memory. Bar's "status quo" isn't as clear as it might originally look.
The point of the above, and the nuance that Bar and Sink left out, is that what your seniority "bought" at each airline was different, even on the same aircraft. The "overtime" system worked differently, the permanent bid system worked differently...and everyone has their preferences.
Sure, you can generalize the SLI, but it was REALLY, REALLY dependent on your age, your fleet and where you were sitting. It really was a grouping of little micro-envrionments.
All I can say for sure is how it affects me.
I lost half a percent of relative seniority. I was on the cusp, 4 years ago, of holding DC-9 Captain, and that is now painfully out of reach by 1500 numbers. A colleague hired 6 months after me at DAL is now 1000 numbers senior to me.
Due to different demographcis & retirements, I vary between 5 and 15 percent behind in relative seniority, over the status quo (AKA "where I would have been"), every year, until I am 55. I never get back to my original "advancement curve". I will retire 5 percent behind were I would have at NWA.
In theory, there are more bidding choices of equipment. In reality, I can only hold what I have. A shorter commute doesn't mean it's easier.
I have, in theory, more bidding power now at %65 than I had at %90. In reality, I have less choice in trips, and the trips I can hold are far worse now then I could hold 4 years ago .
Some fDAL guys really get their knickers in a twist because they had a real "pie in the sky" idea of what they "should have gotten", and Bar's "status quo" is a really good example of this, because you can't draw an even comparason of the two airlines, even on the same fleet.
Some say "DAL won", and that might be open to debate. In any event, some fDAL guys didn't win as much as they thought they should have, and so they get a little cranky about it. This falls into the thought process of government spending, where if the rate of increase your program gets is reduced, that's actually a "cut" in spending.
SOME fDAL guys (a limited number, probably less than 300 or so) actually did worse than DOH, and if you talk to them, the world has ended. Pretty funny, actually, when the NWA side had 2001 hires slotted in with 2007 DAL hires.
As Sink said, the list works "well enough" to reduce most of the angst people have about it to pseudo-intellectual blather, such as found on this thread. Nothing more.
Nu
07-22-2012, 08:09 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: B744 F/O
Posts: 141
Well, my personal numbers are as follows. At the SLI I was 34% at NW and became 34% at DL. Right now I have fallen 1.4% behind the projected progression of NW vs. DL. I fall behind by about 5% by 2021, then begin to catch up again. Back to even by 2025. These numbers were brought to you by the EZopenBoard seniority crystal ball.
With that said, I believe both NW and DL pilots are in a much stronger position now than either would have been on their own. Management obviously wants to run a successful and profitable airline. I think both sides, N and S, have a better chance to make it to a secure retirement as a combined carrier.
TR
With that said, I believe both NW and DL pilots are in a much stronger position now than either would have been on their own. Management obviously wants to run a successful and profitable airline. I think both sides, N and S, have a better chance to make it to a secure retirement as a combined carrier.
TR
07-22-2012, 08:35 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: AN124 FE
Posts: 1,226
Both Sink and Bar have points, but some of the nuance has been removed.
It is nearly impossible to determine what "would have happened" and use that as a touchstone for any kind of "what if". Many feel that the DAL/NWA merger was a done deal on the NY Bankruptcy Court steps, years before the actual announcement, and that most events occured within that framework.
Absent that envrionment, there is absolutely no way to know what each company would have done with their staffing or fleet planning.
While it is true on the junior end, NWA pilots typically were in smaller equipment (DC-9, A320), NWA also had a very large widebody percentage (747-400, 747-200s, 747-Fs and 330s) compared to the NB fleet, and they were all "large" widebodies...with a majority in the 300+ seat range. Whereas DAL had exactly zero aircraft with 300+ seats.
Prior to the merger, DAL had (and still has) a handful of 777s and 767-400s. The bulk of their "widebody" fleet was 767-300s, most of which are near the 757-300 in capacity. Even the 777 has over 100 seats less than 747s, and are more accurately grouped with the 330-300. (which NWA had more of, than DAL had 777s)
So Bar is correct, kinda. Junior NWA pilots were typically in the 320 or DC-9 versus the 757. But while a DAL guy might CLAIM he was on the 7ER, in reality, it was mostly plain old 757 flying, with the exception a 767 leg thrown in there here and there.
Their senior guys grabbed the international flying, same as they do everywhere else, while the junior guys are left motoring 4 legs between ATL and MCO on the 757. Unless, of course, you banshed yourself to perma-reserve or an "unpopular domicile".
While NWA did their share of that kind of flying, it was mostly restricted to the 320 and below. Once you hopped into the widebody, you were ON a widebody, every leg, and it was honest to god international flying.
Speaking of the 757...the type of flying NWA did with the 757 was vastly, VASTLY different than what DAL does, despite the fact that the NWA 757 fleet was half the size. At NWA, you didn't have to expend any "seniority" avoiding 4 day trips worth 21 hours comprising 4-5 legs of ATL-Florida turns. NRT and AMS trips were available, consistently, even to the very junior.
NWA WAS slightly overstaffed...but only in the context of DAL workrules. 300-350 NWA pilots worked as instructors (albiet, not all at once), whereas under the DAL PWA, these activities were(are) outsourced (Bar's favorite word) to non-seniority list instructors. Eliminate those jobs, and yea, there would be some excess, but that's not the fault of the NWA side, who fought to keep those jobs for NWA pilots (and the resulting staffing implications), despite bankruptcy. Mind you I am NOT critiquing DAL training, but simply illustrating the priorities of each group.
In this same context, NWA ALPA typically expended it's negotiating capital on QoL items, rather than the straight W2. Sadly, most of these QoL items were jettisoned...very little "cherry picking" actually occured. Like the instructor issue, I am not critqueing the W2 vs QoL choice, but simply illustrating that the two pilot groups had different priorites.
When I first got on the 757 at NWA, I was in the bottom 20 blockholders, and I consistently flew 3 4 day trips, each worth 25+ hours, and many, if not most, of the trips I flew had a HNL overnight. AMS and NRT trips were mine for the asking. I'm now in the 65 percentile (an improvement, you would think), and if I avoid any trips with more than 3 legs/day (something I didn't even have to think about with NWA), I wind up with 4 day trips worth 17-20 hours, and usually have a redeye on the back end, with such exotic, sunny summer destinations like LAS and PHX.
The kind of trips I held at NWA are nothing but a pleasant memory. Bar's "status quo" isn't as clear as it might originally look.
The point of the above, and the nuance that Bar and Sink left out, is that what your seniority "bought" at each airline was different, even on the same aircraft. The "overtime" system worked differently, the permanent bid system worked differently...and everyone has their preferences.
Sure, you can generalize the SLI, but it was REALLY, REALLY dependent on your age, your fleet and where you were sitting. It really was a grouping of little micro-envrionments.
All I can say for sure is how it affects me.
I lost half a percent of relative seniority. I was on the cusp, 4 years ago, of holding DC-9 Captain, and that is now painfully out of reach by 1500 numbers. A colleague hired 6 months after me at DAL is now 1000 numbers senior to me.
Due to different demographcis & retirements, I vary between 5 and 15 percent behind in relative seniority, over the status quo (AKA "where I would have been"), every year, until I am 55. I never get back to my original "advancement curve". I will retire 5 percent behind were I would have at NWA.
In theory, there are more bidding choices of equipment. In reality, I can only hold what I have. A shorter commute doesn't mean it's easier.
I have, in theory, more bidding power now at %65 than I had at %90. In reality, I have less choice in trips, and the trips I can hold are far worse now then I could hold 4 years ago .
Some fDAL guys really get their knickers in a twist because they had a real "pie in the sky" idea of what they "should have gotten", and Bar's "status quo" is a really good example of this, because you can't draw an even comparason of the two airlines, even on the same fleet.
Some say "DAL won", and that might be open to debate. In any event, some fDAL guys didn't win as much as they thought they should have, and so they get a little cranky about it. This falls into the thought process of government spending, where if the rate of increase your program gets is reduced, that's actually a "cut" in spending.
SOME fDAL guys (a limited number, probably less than 300 or so) actually did worse than DOH, and if you talk to them, the world has ended. Pretty funny, actually, when the NWA side had 2001 hires slotted in with 2007 DAL hires.
As Sink said, the list works "well enough" to reduce most of the angst people have about it to pseudo-intellectual blather, such as found on this thread. Nothing more.
Nu
It is nearly impossible to determine what "would have happened" and use that as a touchstone for any kind of "what if". Many feel that the DAL/NWA merger was a done deal on the NY Bankruptcy Court steps, years before the actual announcement, and that most events occured within that framework.
Absent that envrionment, there is absolutely no way to know what each company would have done with their staffing or fleet planning.
While it is true on the junior end, NWA pilots typically were in smaller equipment (DC-9, A320), NWA also had a very large widebody percentage (747-400, 747-200s, 747-Fs and 330s) compared to the NB fleet, and they were all "large" widebodies...with a majority in the 300+ seat range. Whereas DAL had exactly zero aircraft with 300+ seats.
Prior to the merger, DAL had (and still has) a handful of 777s and 767-400s. The bulk of their "widebody" fleet was 767-300s, most of which are near the 757-300 in capacity. Even the 777 has over 100 seats less than 747s, and are more accurately grouped with the 330-300. (which NWA had more of, than DAL had 777s)
So Bar is correct, kinda. Junior NWA pilots were typically in the 320 or DC-9 versus the 757. But while a DAL guy might CLAIM he was on the 7ER, in reality, it was mostly plain old 757 flying, with the exception a 767 leg thrown in there here and there.
Their senior guys grabbed the international flying, same as they do everywhere else, while the junior guys are left motoring 4 legs between ATL and MCO on the 757. Unless, of course, you banshed yourself to perma-reserve or an "unpopular domicile".
While NWA did their share of that kind of flying, it was mostly restricted to the 320 and below. Once you hopped into the widebody, you were ON a widebody, every leg, and it was honest to god international flying.
Speaking of the 757...the type of flying NWA did with the 757 was vastly, VASTLY different than what DAL does, despite the fact that the NWA 757 fleet was half the size. At NWA, you didn't have to expend any "seniority" avoiding 4 day trips worth 21 hours comprising 4-5 legs of ATL-Florida turns. NRT and AMS trips were available, consistently, even to the very junior.
NWA WAS slightly overstaffed...but only in the context of DAL workrules. 300-350 NWA pilots worked as instructors (albiet, not all at once), whereas under the DAL PWA, these activities were(are) outsourced (Bar's favorite word) to non-seniority list instructors. Eliminate those jobs, and yea, there would be some excess, but that's not the fault of the NWA side, who fought to keep those jobs for NWA pilots (and the resulting staffing implications), despite bankruptcy. Mind you I am NOT critiquing DAL training, but simply illustrating the priorities of each group.
In this same context, NWA ALPA typically expended it's negotiating capital on QoL items, rather than the straight W2. Sadly, most of these QoL items were jettisoned...very little "cherry picking" actually occured. Like the instructor issue, I am not critqueing the W2 vs QoL choice, but simply illustrating that the two pilot groups had different priorites.
When I first got on the 757 at NWA, I was in the bottom 20 blockholders, and I consistently flew 3 4 day trips, each worth 25+ hours, and many, if not most, of the trips I flew had a HNL overnight. AMS and NRT trips were mine for the asking. I'm now in the 65 percentile (an improvement, you would think), and if I avoid any trips with more than 3 legs/day (something I didn't even have to think about with NWA), I wind up with 4 day trips worth 17-20 hours, and usually have a redeye on the back end, with such exotic, sunny summer destinations like LAS and PHX.
The kind of trips I held at NWA are nothing but a pleasant memory. Bar's "status quo" isn't as clear as it might originally look.
The point of the above, and the nuance that Bar and Sink left out, is that what your seniority "bought" at each airline was different, even on the same aircraft. The "overtime" system worked differently, the permanent bid system worked differently...and everyone has their preferences.
Sure, you can generalize the SLI, but it was REALLY, REALLY dependent on your age, your fleet and where you were sitting. It really was a grouping of little micro-envrionments.
All I can say for sure is how it affects me.
I lost half a percent of relative seniority. I was on the cusp, 4 years ago, of holding DC-9 Captain, and that is now painfully out of reach by 1500 numbers. A colleague hired 6 months after me at DAL is now 1000 numbers senior to me.
Due to different demographcis & retirements, I vary between 5 and 15 percent behind in relative seniority, over the status quo (AKA "where I would have been"), every year, until I am 55. I never get back to my original "advancement curve". I will retire 5 percent behind were I would have at NWA.
In theory, there are more bidding choices of equipment. In reality, I can only hold what I have. A shorter commute doesn't mean it's easier.
I have, in theory, more bidding power now at %65 than I had at %90. In reality, I have less choice in trips, and the trips I can hold are far worse now then I could hold 4 years ago .
Some fDAL guys really get their knickers in a twist because they had a real "pie in the sky" idea of what they "should have gotten", and Bar's "status quo" is a really good example of this, because you can't draw an even comparason of the two airlines, even on the same fleet.
Some say "DAL won", and that might be open to debate. In any event, some fDAL guys didn't win as much as they thought they should have, and so they get a little cranky about it. This falls into the thought process of government spending, where if the rate of increase your program gets is reduced, that's actually a "cut" in spending.
SOME fDAL guys (a limited number, probably less than 300 or so) actually did worse than DOH, and if you talk to them, the world has ended. Pretty funny, actually, when the NWA side had 2001 hires slotted in with 2007 DAL hires.
As Sink said, the list works "well enough" to reduce most of the angst people have about it to pseudo-intellectual blather, such as found on this thread. Nothing more.
Nu
07-22-2012, 08:42 PM
#25
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
There were a number of urban legends as are typical of any Corporate mash up.
07-22-2012, 08:52 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: AN124 FE
Posts: 1,226
Yes it was true, atleast in MSP. Lasted a few months...Obviously it wasnt truely a belief that they did not think they knew what they were doing but they were riding along for awhile to observe.
07-22-2012, 08:56 PM
#27
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Both Sink and Bar have points, but some of the nuance has been removed.
It is nearly impossible to determine what "would have happened" and use that as a touchstone for any kind of "what if".
....
Prior to the merger, DAL had (and still has) a handful of 777s and 767-400s. The bulk of their "widebody" fleet was 767-300s, most of which are near the 757-300 in capacity. Even the 777 has over 100 seats less than 747s, and are more accurately grouped with the 330-300. (which NWA had more of, than DAL had 777s)
Nu
It is nearly impossible to determine what "would have happened" and use that as a touchstone for any kind of "what if".
....
Prior to the merger, DAL had (and still has) a handful of 777s and 767-400s. The bulk of their "widebody" fleet was 767-300s, most of which are near the 757-300 in capacity. Even the 777 has over 100 seats less than 747s, and are more accurately grouped with the 330-300. (which NWA had more of, than DAL had 777s)
Nu
For better or worse, Delta does not go out of its way to build schedules around commuters. Most DAL pilots live in base. Of course DAL did not have MSP or DTW. Which brings me to point #2.
Macro demographic trends drive airline O&D trends. People have been moving South ever since the invention of air conditioning made living here tolerable from May to September. Northwest's O&D markets were (are) in decline, Detroit especially. We got out of cargo and Narita's future is questionable. None of these macro economic or geopolitical trends are the fault of the NWA pilots, they simply are what they are.
Our pre-merger CEO had Delta on a path of organic growth. Growth which resulted in junior upgrades. That growth stopped with the merger. (ALPA in merger cheerleader mode states after the fact says we would have went broke had we continued to grow, who knows ... all I know is that post merger we have shrunk on all corners except ATL, NYC, SLC, LAX and SEA) Unfortunately Delta was owned by hedge fund money who wanted a deal which would facilitate their exit.
Given that no one involved had any interest beyond a short term stock pump & dump, the merger worked out remarkably well.
BB
P.S. Still can't call a 400,000 lb jet a widebody without using quotation marks?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-22-2012 at 09:21 PM.
07-22-2012, 09:14 PM
#28
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Could anyone PM me a Comair seniority list with DOH & retirements?
Talk about fun with spreadsheets. I'd like to run the boogey man threat of "Comair pilots would get DOH" against what actually happened and see what the model looks like. I'm sure the result would make for some "engaging web board discussion."
Talk about fun with spreadsheets. I'd like to run the boogey man threat of "Comair pilots would get DOH" against what actually happened and see what the model looks like. I'm sure the result would make for some "engaging web board discussion."
07-22-2012, 09:43 PM
#29
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Could anyone PM me a Comair seniority list with DOH & retirements?
Talk about fun with spreadsheets. I'd like to run the boogey man threat of "Comair pilots would get DOH" against what actually happened and see what the model looks like. I'm sure the result would make for some "engaging web board discussion."
Talk about fun with spreadsheets. I'd like to run the boogey man threat of "Comair pilots would get DOH" against what actually happened and see what the model looks like. I'm sure the result would make for some "engaging web board discussion."
Oh, and only above 500,000 lbs counts as a widebody in NuGuy's world.
07-22-2012, 11:08 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: DL 7ER F/O
Posts: 249
Nu,
That was a very good explanation of your perspective, thanks for posting it. How did you lose any relative % with the plug and play? I thought everyone from your side moved up a little initially to offset the more numerous retirements that you had on your side in the next few years.
Most guys will take the metric that most negatively affects them and dwell on that, be it DOH or relative or whatever. Very few will consider all the metrics involved and come up with a good explanation of how they were really affected.
Still many others will blame whatever backwards movement they have experienced on just the SLI, while not taking into account decisions that the company has made since that time, like the SLI can save them from any negative effects down the road.
From my perspective, I lost around 2% relative, but make it back up over the course of my career and find myself within 1% of where I would have been had no merger occurred and everything stayed the same. I gained access to different flying and bases closer to where I live, all kind of balances out in some ways.
That was a very good explanation of your perspective, thanks for posting it. How did you lose any relative % with the plug and play? I thought everyone from your side moved up a little initially to offset the more numerous retirements that you had on your side in the next few years.
Most guys will take the metric that most negatively affects them and dwell on that, be it DOH or relative or whatever. Very few will consider all the metrics involved and come up with a good explanation of how they were really affected.
Still many others will blame whatever backwards movement they have experienced on just the SLI, while not taking into account decisions that the company has made since that time, like the SLI can save them from any negative effects down the road.
From my perspective, I lost around 2% relative, but make it back up over the course of my career and find myself within 1% of where I would have been had no merger occurred and everything stayed the same. I gained access to different flying and bases closer to where I live, all kind of balances out in some ways.
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