Transatlantic JV
06-25-2012, 11:10 AM
#11
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Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
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You do know that KLM/AF have capacity cuts across the North Atlantic for the peak summer season of 6.5 percent? They are planning large cuts for the winter and just announced large layoffs in support of their new schedule. I don't know if your intentionally trying to miss lead or did not bother with even a tiny bit of fact checking. I am actually not sure what your even trying to say. If your trying to make a point that without the joint venture Delta would have maintained capacity in the face of a huge economic meltdown in Europe then I think you are disallusioned. I think you can actually make the opposite case. Absent the joint venture pulldowns to Europe would be far more dramatic.
Both JV partners have reduced Transatlantic capacity.
Delta has reduced Transatlantic capacity much more than AFKLM.
Our current production balance share of flying is below 47%.
Now Delta is cutting more capacity.
Nothing wrong or misleading at all. Just facts.
Cheers
George
06-25-2012, 11:20 AM
#12
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Well, I have several sources. There are several industry analysts that track capacity and I use three to give a rolling average. I also have the scope tracking scorecard that comes from Delta. Finally, we do OAG pulls to cross check the data.
I won't publish the EASK's because they are not public knowledge. Okay, now it's your turn, what sources do you have? You know, making a pretty graph does not make your information any more true.
I won't publish the EASK's because they are not public knowledge. Okay, now it's your turn, what sources do you have? You know, making a pretty graph does not make your information any more true.
Delta, partners to reduce capacity across Atlantic after Labor Day | Airline Biz Blog
here is the presentation: Delta: Building a Better Airline, 2011 Global Transportation Conference
Airline analysts have come to the same conclusion...
Delta Increases Reliance on Partners, Cuts Transatlantic Flights - >> The Cranky Flier
Annual and additional cuts in Transatlantic flying are discussed here:
Delta Air to trim capacity on trans-Atlantic routes | Reuters
"It's a proactive measure. We're not seeing any signs of weakness per se in any one region," Bastian said.
Show me what city pairs that were cut by AFKLM/AZ, then show me ours.
Substantiate your claim of a 15% y-o-y Transatlantic JV flying reduction by AFKLM/AZ. You can't.
This isn't anger, agenda or misleading, this is reality.
let's have an honest discussion on where we are and maybe then we can have an honest discussion on how to improve things?
Isn't that CRM 101?
Cheers
George
Last edited by georgetg; 06-25-2012 at 11:59 AM.
06-25-2012, 11:34 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
The graph is from Delta Air Lines in a presentation governed by SEC rules. the source is at the bottom of the slide.
Delta, partners to reduce capacity across Atlantic after Labor Day | Airline Biz Blog
Airline analysts have come to the same conclusion...
Delta Increases Reliance on Partners, Cuts Transatlantic Flights - >> The Cranky Flier
Annual and additional cuts in Transatlantic flying are discussed here:
Delta Air to trim capacity on trans-Atlantic routes | Reuters
City Pair information is public once loaded in GDS, here is a good source for DELTA W12 Trans-Atlantic Operation Changes as of 17JUN12 | Airline Route
Show me what city pairs where cut by AFKLM/AZ, then show me ours.
Substantiate your claim of a 15% Trasatlantic JV flying reduction by AFKLM/AZ. You can't.
This isn't anger, agenda or misleading, this is reality.
let's have an honest discussion on where we are and maybe then we can have an honest discussion on how to improve things?
Isn't that CRM 101?
Cheers
George
Delta, partners to reduce capacity across Atlantic after Labor Day | Airline Biz Blog
Airline analysts have come to the same conclusion...
Delta Increases Reliance on Partners, Cuts Transatlantic Flights - >> The Cranky Flier
Annual and additional cuts in Transatlantic flying are discussed here:
Delta Air to trim capacity on trans-Atlantic routes | Reuters
City Pair information is public once loaded in GDS, here is a good source for DELTA W12 Trans-Atlantic Operation Changes as of 17JUN12 | Airline Route
Show me what city pairs where cut by AFKLM/AZ, then show me ours.
Substantiate your claim of a 15% Trasatlantic JV flying reduction by AFKLM/AZ. You can't.
This isn't anger, agenda or misleading, this is reality.
let's have an honest discussion on where we are and maybe then we can have an honest discussion on how to improve things?
Isn't that CRM 101?
Cheers
George
06-25-2012, 02:06 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
The "pretty" graph is from Delta Air Lines in a presentation governed by SEC rules. the source is at the bottom of the slide.
Delta, partners to reduce capacity across Atlantic after Labor Day | Airline Biz Blog
here is the presentation: Delta: Building a Better Airline, 2011 Global Transportation Conference
Airline analysts have come to the same conclusion...
Delta Increases Reliance on Partners, Cuts Transatlantic Flights - >> The Cranky Flier
Annual and additional cuts in Transatlantic flying are discussed here:
Delta Air to trim capacity on trans-Atlantic routes | Reuters
City Pair information is public once loaded in GDS, here is a good source for DELTA W12 Trans-Atlantic Operation Changes as of 17JUN12 | Airline Route
Show me what city pairs that were cut by AFKLM/AZ, then show me ours.
Substantiate your claim of a 15% y-o-y Transatlantic JV flying reduction by AFKLM/AZ. You can't.
This isn't anger, agenda or misleading, this is reality.
let's have an honest discussion on where we are and maybe then we can have an honest discussion on how to improve things?
Isn't that CRM 101?
Cheers
George
Delta, partners to reduce capacity across Atlantic after Labor Day | Airline Biz Blog
here is the presentation: Delta: Building a Better Airline, 2011 Global Transportation Conference
Airline analysts have come to the same conclusion...
Delta Increases Reliance on Partners, Cuts Transatlantic Flights - >> The Cranky Flier
Annual and additional cuts in Transatlantic flying are discussed here:
Delta Air to trim capacity on trans-Atlantic routes | Reuters
City Pair information is public once loaded in GDS, here is a good source for DELTA W12 Trans-Atlantic Operation Changes as of 17JUN12 | Airline Route
Show me what city pairs that were cut by AFKLM/AZ, then show me ours.
Substantiate your claim of a 15% y-o-y Transatlantic JV flying reduction by AFKLM/AZ. You can't.
This isn't anger, agenda or misleading, this is reality.
let's have an honest discussion on where we are and maybe then we can have an honest discussion on how to improve things?
Isn't that CRM 101?
Cheers
George
Since we want to have an honest discussion, maybe you can answer the following questions:
- When you made your staffing slide you assumed less than 3 crews per airplane for MD-90 and B-717. Where did you get those numbers? The company estimate is 5.5 and 7.
- How do you get an 80% shift in reserve flying from winter to summer? The actual shift in total flying is 13% while the actual difference is less than 2%. Where did you derive 80%? What data did you use?
You have two stories from 2011, one from 2012 that does not mention AF/KLM/AZ and then another that announces only Delta's route cuts. Are those your only sources, if so, they are not very good sources. I have analyst reports for both sides of the JV, Delta's scope compliance numbers, and OAG pulls. I will let others decide whose data is better sourced.
06-25-2012, 03:04 PM
#17
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Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
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Okay, so you admit that you don't really have any data. The honest answer is that we were consistently above 50% of the JV flying until Alitalia joined. At that point we were down to about 47.5%. We negotiated to slowly recover to 50+% of a larger pie. Somehow you paint this is a concession or a loss for Delta pilots. That is just outright deception. You play with these numbers and then pretend we are having an honest discussion.
Since we want to have an honest discussion, maybe you can answer the following questions:
You have two stories from 2011, one from 2012 that does not mention AF/KLM/AZ and then another that announces only Delta's route cuts. Are those your only sources, if so, they are not very good sources. I have analyst reports for both sides of the JV, Delta's scope compliance numbers, and OAG pulls. I will let others decide whose data is better sourced.
Since we want to have an honest discussion, maybe you can answer the following questions:
- When you made your staffing slide you assumed less than 3 crews per airplane for MD-90 and B-717. Where did you get those numbers? The company estimate is 5.5 and 7.
- How do you get an 80% shift in reserve flying from winter to summer? The actual shift in total flying is 13% while the actual difference is less than 2%. Where did you derive 80%? What data did you use?
You have two stories from 2011, one from 2012 that does not mention AF/KLM/AZ and then another that announces only Delta's route cuts. Are those your only sources, if so, they are not very good sources. I have analyst reports for both sides of the JV, Delta's scope compliance numbers, and OAG pulls. I will let others decide whose data is better sourced.
What is our accumulated production balance for the current compliance period started April 1, 2011?
It's a simple question with a numerical answer in percentage points.
If everything is as great as you put it, you shouldn't have difficulty to produce it.
No condescension, no spin, just a howgozit on the Transatlantic TA...
Cheers
George
PS:
All your other points are fine diversions.
I'll be happy to answer them in turn.
Last edited by georgetg; 06-25-2012 at 03:15 PM.
06-25-2012, 05:32 PM
#18
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Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
Not to confuse ramblings with facts, but AF/KLM/AZ are cutting transatlantic capacity by about 15% this winter. Their total capacity cuts are more than double what Delta's are. Your graph shows what happened last winter. I note how you try to confuse the intra European capacity with the Trans Atlantic capacity. As you know, we do US domestic and they do intra Europe and the JV is about Trans Atlantic capacity. So you discussing intra Europe flying is just one more misdirection.
I guess this is just as accurate as your bogus staffing slide. Well, really your entire line of bogus slides.
I guess this is just as accurate as your bogus staffing slide. Well, really your entire line of bogus slides.
06-25-2012, 05:36 PM
#19
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Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
Sailing,
Both JV partners have reduced Transatlantic capacity.
Delta has reduced Transatlantic capacity much more than AFKLM.
Our current production balance share of flying is below 47%.
Now Delta is cutting more capacity.
Nothing wrong or misleading at all. Just facts.
Cheers
George
Both JV partners have reduced Transatlantic capacity.
Delta has reduced Transatlantic capacity much more than AFKLM.
Our current production balance share of flying is below 47%.
Now Delta is cutting more capacity.
Nothing wrong or misleading at all. Just facts.
Cheers
George
06-25-2012, 05:52 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Did you see what the Arab Spring did to all European airlines? How about the Eurozone crisis? How about Air France looking for 10,000 people to take voluntary cuts (the first step)? I don't think you are looking at the BIG PICTURE here George. Europe isn't doing very well, and in the meantime this TA could give us a 19.7% raise in 2 1/2 years, while adding 88 717s for our domestic growth, while parking 200 RJs (adding 70 larger), and giving us a favorable ratio going forward. That needs to be in your big picture.
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