The Many Reasons a Delta Captain Votes NO
06-14-2012, 08:10 PM
#221
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I seriously doubt the negotiating team from the union accepted RA's first offer.
But you do make a good point about keeping your bottom line VERY close to your vest. That's why I don't understand the few that keep insisting on publication of the pilot contract survey.
I NEVER want management to know precisely what is the cheapest package they need to deliver to buy a 50%+1 vote.
But you do make a good point about keeping your bottom line VERY close to your vest. That's why I don't understand the few that keep insisting on publication of the pilot contract survey.
I NEVER want management to know precisely what is the cheapest package they need to deliver to buy a 50%+1 vote.
06-15-2012, 06:32 AM
#222
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
I understand your thoughts Ferd, I really do. My point is one of basic negotiations 101. I've been doing it my whole life. Rule number 1 is you NEVER give your bottom line in the first offer. Rule number 2 is the imperative of knowing the process, so you know EXACTLY when to divulge your bottom line.
RA clearly knows our DALPA process. As such, he clearly knows that any TA must be voted on by the members. Therefore, it would be insane to hand out your bottom line on the first TA. No negotiator would EVER do that.
Only two possibilities exist:
1. RA doesn't know our process and thought any TA would be automatically voted in. Or,
2. DALPA assured RA that it would be voted in.
This is the only way it would have made sense to divulge your bottom line on the first TA. Just focusing on this particular point...does that make sense to you?
Carl
RA clearly knows our DALPA process. As such, he clearly knows that any TA must be voted on by the members. Therefore, it would be insane to hand out your bottom line on the first TA. No negotiator would EVER do that.
Only two possibilities exist:
1. RA doesn't know our process and thought any TA would be automatically voted in. Or,
2. DALPA assured RA that it would be voted in.
This is the only way it would have made sense to divulge your bottom line on the first TA. Just focusing on this particular point...does that make sense to you?
Carl
But, one logistical question.....how does anything get done? The lead time for a TA, a no vote and another TA has to be a long one
Seriously, I see what you're saying. Thanks
Ferd
06-15-2012, 07:47 AM
#225
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
The answer was: "Because that would change the location of the "middle".
06-15-2012, 08:26 AM
#226
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Just voted.
Back from a long Delta journey combined with vacation. I decided to remain incommunicado and return to see if anything significant has been added to the debate and MEC provided info.
Apparently not.
It is my opinion that we are sitting on the largest amount of leverage in over a decade and are not utilizing it. Opportunites like this don't come along but ever decade or so either.
Ask yourselves :
1. Why does LCC need TPG now for this deal. Why do you think they brought them in? Who would be bidding against LCC with deep enough pockets that required a phone call to David Bnderman.
2. Ask yourselves when does AMR's exclusivity end in BK court. Answer: Late September. Coincidentally, they time period a second deal would likely be done if we rejected this TA
Connect all the dots. Include the current legislative ones concerning Haneda, Japnese and US governments and the picture comes clear.
US Airways, TPG weigh joint bid for American's parent: sources
Credit: Reuters/Chris Keane
By Soyoung Kim
NEW YORK | Thu May 31, 2012 12:03am EDT
NEW YORK (Reuters) - US Airways Group (LCC.N) and private equity firm TPG Capital TPG.UL may team up to bid for American Airlines' parent, AMR Corp (AAMRQ.PK), according to people familiar with the discussions.
A partnership with TPG could boost a US Airways bid for its larger rival in several ways. It could give the carrier more financial flexibility, including the ability to pay some AMR creditors in cash. The addition of TPG, which has invested in several airlines before, could also serve as third-party validation of the proposed combination.
TPG's interest comes as US Airways, the fifth-largest U.S. airline, has secured support for a proposed deal with AMR, the third-largest, from some of the bankrupt airline's key creditors, including the largest labor unions.
The sources, however, cautioned that the discussions between US Airways and TPG are not exclusive and partnering with each other is one of many options each party is considering.
US Airways has received expressions of interest from several parties in financing a potential merger for AMR, while the private equity firm is keeping its options open and may also look at becoming AMR's financial partner under the airline's standalone restructuring plan, the sources said.
US Airways has also yet to determine if it would need to bring in a financial partner to fund a potential bid for AMR, they added.
Spokespeople for US Airways and TPG declined to comment. AMR also did not comment.
AMR'S MERGER ANALYSIS
AMR filed for bankruptcy in November, citing untenable labor costs. The company has said it needs to shed $1.25 billion in annual labor costs to become profitable.
AMR earlier shrugged off interest expressed by US Airways in a deal, saying it could consider a tie-up after it exits bankruptcy as a standalone company.
But earlier this month, under pressure from its labor unions and other creditors to consider a merger with US Airways, AMR agreed to work with its unsecured creditors committee on potential merger scenarios while it is still in bankruptcy.
People familiar with the matter have said previously that the airline wants to negotiate a merger on its own terms after emerging from bankruptcy and could set its sights on different targets, ranging from JetBlue Airways Corp (JBLU.O) to Alaska Air Group Inc (ALK.N) to US Airways.
The company aims to focus on key routes for high-value business travelers under its business plan, including routes connecting New York's JFK airport and London's Heathrow and the JFK-San Francisco network.
JetBlue could be attractive to American because of its strong presence at JFK as well as its fleet of new planes, sources have said.
American said in a statement to Reuters on Thursday: "What's best for our company, our people and our financial stakeholders, will be determined by the facts in a disciplined manner and process. And this includes whether American will choose to pursue any combination down the road."
TPG'S FLIGHT WINGS
TPG's founders, Jim Coulter and David Bonderman, launched their firm with an airline deal in 1993 when they bought Continental Airlines out of bankruptcy and turned it around. Bonderman served as the airline's chairman for 10 years.
The buyout firm went on to make lucrative investments in America West Airlines Inc and Ryanair Holdings Plc (RYA.I). But its $450 million acquisition of Midwest Air Group together with Northwest Airlines Corp in 2008 went sour. TPG later had to sell its stake for $31 million.
TPG has worked with AMR in the past, having partnered with the airline on an unsuccessful $1.1 billion offer to rescue Japan Airlines from bankruptcy in 2009. Bonderman still has the pulse of the airline industry, having served as chairman of Ryanair for 15 years.
TPG also has ties to US Airways. Rick Schifter, an airline veteran and a managing partner at TPG for 18 years, sat on the airline's board for a year before he resigned in November 2006, on the same day US Airways made a hostile bid for Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N). He cited "ever-increasing demands on his time at TPG" and called consolidation in the airline industry "inevitable".
(Reporting by Soyoung Kim in New York, additional reporting by Greg Roumeliotis, Editing by Paritosh Bansal and Matt Driskill)
06-15-2012, 08:38 AM
#227
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Just voted.
Back from a long Delta journey combined with vacation. I decided to remain incommunicado and return to see if anything significant has been added to the debate and MEC provided info.
Apparently not.
It is my opinion that we are sitting on the largest amount of leverage in over a decade and are not utilizing it. Opportunites like this don't come along but ever decade or so either.
Ask yourselves :
1. Why does LCC need TPG now for this deal. Why do you think they brought them in? Who would be bidding against LCC with deep enough pockets that required a phone call to David Bnderman.
2. Ask yourselves when does AMR's exclusivity end in BK court. Answer: Late September. Coincidentally, they time period a second deal would likely be done if we rejected this TA
Connect all the dots. Include the current legislative ones concerning Haneda, Japnese and US governments and the picture comes clear.
US Airways, TPG weigh joint bid for American's parent: sources
Credit: Reuters/Chris Keane
By Soyoung Kim
NEW YORK | Thu May 31, 2012 12:03am EDT
NEW YORK (Reuters) - US Airways Group (LCC.N) and private equity firm TPG Capital TPG.UL may team up to bid for American Airlines' parent, AMR Corp (AAMRQ.PK), according to people familiar with the discussions.
A partnership with TPG could boost a US Airways bid for its larger rival in several ways. It could give the carrier more financial flexibility, including the ability to pay some AMR creditors in cash. The addition of TPG, which has invested in several airlines before, could also serve as third-party validation of the proposed combination.
TPG's interest comes as US Airways, the fifth-largest U.S. airline, has secured support for a proposed deal with AMR, the third-largest, from some of the bankrupt airline's key creditors, including the largest labor unions.
The sources, however, cautioned that the discussions between US Airways and TPG are not exclusive and partnering with each other is one of many options each party is considering.
US Airways has received expressions of interest from several parties in financing a potential merger for AMR, while the private equity firm is keeping its options open and may also look at becoming AMR's financial partner under the airline's standalone restructuring plan, the sources said.
US Airways has also yet to determine if it would need to bring in a financial partner to fund a potential bid for AMR, they added.
Spokespeople for US Airways and TPG declined to comment. AMR also did not comment.
AMR'S MERGER ANALYSIS
AMR filed for bankruptcy in November, citing untenable labor costs. The company has said it needs to shed $1.25 billion in annual labor costs to become profitable.
AMR earlier shrugged off interest expressed by US Airways in a deal, saying it could consider a tie-up after it exits bankruptcy as a standalone company.
But earlier this month, under pressure from its labor unions and other creditors to consider a merger with US Airways, AMR agreed to work with its unsecured creditors committee on potential merger scenarios while it is still in bankruptcy.
People familiar with the matter have said previously that the airline wants to negotiate a merger on its own terms after emerging from bankruptcy and could set its sights on different targets, ranging from JetBlue Airways Corp (JBLU.O) to Alaska Air Group Inc (ALK.N) to US Airways.
The company aims to focus on key routes for high-value business travelers under its business plan, including routes connecting New York's JFK airport and London's Heathrow and the JFK-San Francisco network.
JetBlue could be attractive to American because of its strong presence at JFK as well as its fleet of new planes, sources have said.
American said in a statement to Reuters on Thursday: "What's best for our company, our people and our financial stakeholders, will be determined by the facts in a disciplined manner and process. And this includes whether American will choose to pursue any combination down the road."
TPG'S FLIGHT WINGS
TPG's founders, Jim Coulter and David Bonderman, launched their firm with an airline deal in 1993 when they bought Continental Airlines out of bankruptcy and turned it around. Bonderman served as the airline's chairman for 10 years.
The buyout firm went on to make lucrative investments in America West Airlines Inc and Ryanair Holdings Plc (RYA.I). But its $450 million acquisition of Midwest Air Group together with Northwest Airlines Corp in 2008 went sour. TPG later had to sell its stake for $31 million.
TPG has worked with AMR in the past, having partnered with the airline on an unsuccessful $1.1 billion offer to rescue Japan Airlines from bankruptcy in 2009. Bonderman still has the pulse of the airline industry, having served as chairman of Ryanair for 15 years.
TPG also has ties to US Airways. Rick Schifter, an airline veteran and a managing partner at TPG for 18 years, sat on the airline's board for a year before he resigned in November 2006, on the same day US Airways made a hostile bid for Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N). He cited "ever-increasing demands on his time at TPG" and called consolidation in the airline industry "inevitable".
(Reporting by Soyoung Kim in New York, additional reporting by Greg Roumeliotis, Editing by Paritosh Bansal and Matt Driskill)
06-15-2012, 09:37 AM
#228
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
You can't logically compare DAL pay rates with UPS and FedEx, because their business model is nothing like DAL's. And SWA's business model is not very much like DAL, so I wouldn't compare DAL's pay with theirs, either.
Just because someone else flies the same plane as you do, doesn't mean that your company has the ability to pay you the same thing they do. Revenue generation per seat-mile/aircraft mile/dollar invested, etc. is radically different at UPS and DAL.
cliff
ANC
Just because someone else flies the same plane as you do, doesn't mean that your company has the ability to pay you the same thing they do. Revenue generation per seat-mile/aircraft mile/dollar invested, etc. is radically different at UPS and DAL.
cliff
ANC
06-15-2012, 09:45 AM
#229
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Sure T-bagger
Except the original offer still stands.
If I may refresh your recollection. That offer was made well over a week ago and you wanted to modify it to over 10 x the original amount along with some obscure metrosexual sounding rare Italian liquor that you happen to procure only on your Rome layovers.
Even though a week has passed, and by nature you'd have to sit on your hands and color for only two weeks now instead of three, I still say your self inflated ego ego will seek more validation and you won't be able to do it
So, my offer of $100 and a case of beer or $30 dollars in lieu of that if you want to put it towards your special cordial or aperitif or whatever it is that tickles you, great.
As an FO with kids and family and a retirement I am still trying to re-fund, that is all I can afford on this post bankruptcy era pay we are on. Did I forget saving for college.
Just tell ACL if you except. My guess is, particularly now, your ego coupled with the superciliousness that oozes from you won't allow you to do it. You really hate it when folks question your preemninence and in your mind don't pay distinction to your rank(s).
Did the zoo or the boy scouts do that to you?
06-15-2012, 09:54 AM
#230
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I seriously doubt the negotiating team from the union accepted RA's first offer.
But you do make a good point about keeping your bottom line VERY close to your vest. That's why I don't understand the few that keep insisting on publication of the pilot contract survey.
I NEVER want management to know precisely what is the cheapest package they need to deliver to buy a 50%+1 vote.
But you do make a good point about keeping your bottom line VERY close to your vest. That's why I don't understand the few that keep insisting on publication of the pilot contract survey.
I NEVER want management to know precisely what is the cheapest package they need to deliver to buy a 50%+1 vote.
My point is that RA knows any TA must be member ratified, thus he would have been foolish to give his bottom line in the very first TA. There's no way I would have done it. I would have told DALPA that it's my last best offer and I'll see you at the NMB. If you blink, I win big for my shareholders. If you call my bluff, I'd engage you in a second round and scream that you're stealing us blind the whole time. It sounds like a game, but it's just business. Negotiations 101.
Carl
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