The Many Reasons a Delta Captain Votes NO
06-14-2012, 06:33 AM
#201
Sho me da money!
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B25, Left
Posts: 947
hi carl,
part two. Got to thinking more this morning and thought i'd drop ya another line. Was going to send a pm, but what the heck.
I'm sure you're tired of reading my poker analogy (i don't think you can just get one of your down cards swapped, you have to wait for the next hand). I don't like my cards either. But, they are good enough for something this short and i'm willing to call the pot and see the next card (or what ra is in such a hurry about)
but, i also got to thinking why i'm willing to do that. There are so many great arguments as to why i'm wrong and i do listen and think about what has been said. So i came down to a military analogy for you.
I trust ra, i think he is a horse like say patton in france or grant in virginia or sherman.....wait never mind. We are headed into a dark forest and ra wants to attack "something" we just can't see it yet. Guys around me have very legitimate concerns about flanks, supply lines and air cover. I'm not sure either, but based on past performance i'm willing to follow him into the forest. I've got my eyes closed but i'm walking forward:d
as i said, i think ra is a horse and i think he is going to make us some money. Some of his minions??.....i agree, watch your wallet!!
Ferd
part two. Got to thinking more this morning and thought i'd drop ya another line. Was going to send a pm, but what the heck.
I'm sure you're tired of reading my poker analogy (i don't think you can just get one of your down cards swapped, you have to wait for the next hand). I don't like my cards either. But, they are good enough for something this short and i'm willing to call the pot and see the next card (or what ra is in such a hurry about)
but, i also got to thinking why i'm willing to do that. There are so many great arguments as to why i'm wrong and i do listen and think about what has been said. So i came down to a military analogy for you.
I trust ra, i think he is a horse like say patton in france or grant in virginia or sherman.....wait never mind. We are headed into a dark forest and ra wants to attack "something" we just can't see it yet. Guys around me have very legitimate concerns about flanks, supply lines and air cover. I'm not sure either, but based on past performance i'm willing to follow him into the forest. I've got my eyes closed but i'm walking forward:d
as i said, i think ra is a horse and i think he is going to make us some money. Some of his minions??.....i agree, watch your wallet!!
Ferd
wow that was good !:d
06-14-2012, 07:19 AM
#202
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
The company has also spent much time and resources to negotiate a deal with us 8 months before our contract is amendable. Why would they do that Ferd? And when you answer that to your own satisfaction, ask yourself why they would have wasted those resources because they're too stubborn and need to show the pilots who's boss?
They know our process as well as we do. They know full well that a NO vote is possible. Thus, they would have been FOOLISH to give us their real bottom line on the first try. We'll be even more foolish if we take it.
Carl
They know our process as well as we do. They know full well that a NO vote is possible. Thus, they would have been FOOLISH to give us their real bottom line on the first try. We'll be even more foolish if we take it.
Carl
Don't even get me started on the scope issue.. But let me ax you this.. if this scope proposal was the only thing on the ballot, would you go on strike over it? I wouldn't even consider it, and I'll betcha there are a LOT of others that agree with me on that. This scope is a clear win for this pilot group
Have fun.....
06-14-2012, 07:48 AM
#203
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
The company has also spent much time and resources to negotiate a deal with us 8 months before our contract is amendable. Why would they do that Ferd? And when you answer that to your own satisfaction, ask yourself why they would have wasted those resources because they're too stubborn and need to show the pilots who's boss?
They know our process as well as we do. They know full well that a NO vote is possible. Thus, they would have been FOOLISH to give us their real bottom line on the first try. We'll be even more foolish if we take it.
Carl
They know our process as well as we do. They know full well that a NO vote is possible. Thus, they would have been FOOLISH to give us their real bottom line on the first try. We'll be even more foolish if we take it.
Carl
Well of course I 'could be' wrong, I just doubt I am. For one thing, we both know these guys.....you know they want to show us who's boss, these are our sharks not the nice southern species
But seriously, they are willing to go direct if they can but they are also more than willing to stay on the published route. But, as to your point, remember they have shown how much they love us with the JCBA, how did the second offer look. I stand by my opinion.....there is no way they are going to show other employee groups that they are more flexibile with a union than if you don't have one.
I suggest we consult with our buddy Jack. He knows all and will lead us to total truth by the end of the evening. Too bad he charges so much in the Sports Bar for such consultation
Ferd
But seriously, they are willing to go direct if they can but they are also more than willing to stay on the published route. But, as to your point, remember they have shown how much they love us with the JCBA, how did the second offer look. I stand by my opinion.....there is no way they are going to show other employee groups that they are more flexibile with a union than if you don't have one.
I suggest we consult with our buddy Jack. He knows all and will lead us to total truth by the end of the evening. Too bad he charges so much in the Sports Bar for such consultation
Ferd
Hi Carl,
Part two. Got to thinking more this morning and thought I'd drop ya another line. Was going to send a PM, but what the heck.
I'm sure you're tired of reading my poker analogy (I don't think you can just get one of your down cards swapped, you have to wait for the next hand). I don't like my cards either. But, they are good enough for something this short and I'm willing to call the pot and see the next card (or what RA is in such a hurry about)
But, I also got to thinking why I'm willing to do that. There are so many great arguments as to why I'm wrong and I do listen and think about what has been said. So I came down to a military analogy for you.
I trust RA, I think he is a horse like say Patton in France or Grant in Virginia or Sherman.....wait never mind. We are headed into a dark forest and RA wants to attack "something" we just can't see it yet. Guys around me have VERY LEGITIMATE CONCERNS about flanks, supply lines and air cover. I'm not sure either, but based on past performance I'm willing to follow him into the forest. I've got my eyes closed but I'm walking forward
As I said, I think RA is a horse and I think he is going to make us some money. Some of his minions??.....I agree, watch your wallet!!
Ferd
Part two. Got to thinking more this morning and thought I'd drop ya another line. Was going to send a PM, but what the heck.
I'm sure you're tired of reading my poker analogy (I don't think you can just get one of your down cards swapped, you have to wait for the next hand). I don't like my cards either. But, they are good enough for something this short and I'm willing to call the pot and see the next card (or what RA is in such a hurry about)
But, I also got to thinking why I'm willing to do that. There are so many great arguments as to why I'm wrong and I do listen and think about what has been said. So I came down to a military analogy for you.
I trust RA, I think he is a horse like say Patton in France or Grant in Virginia or Sherman.....wait never mind. We are headed into a dark forest and RA wants to attack "something" we just can't see it yet. Guys around me have VERY LEGITIMATE CONCERNS about flanks, supply lines and air cover. I'm not sure either, but based on past performance I'm willing to follow him into the forest. I've got my eyes closed but I'm walking forward
As I said, I think RA is a horse and I think he is going to make us some money. Some of his minions??.....I agree, watch your wallet!!
Ferd
Carl,
Ferd asked me to put all these posts together. He wanted to add some thoughts to his first response, but couldn't edit it.
06-14-2012, 04:17 PM
#206
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Hi Carl,
Part two. Got to thinking more this morning and thought I'd drop ya another line. Was going to send a PM, but what the heck.
I'm sure you're tired of reading my poker analogy (I don't think you can just get one of your down cards swapped, you have to wait for the next hand). I don't like my cards either. But, they are good enough for something this short and I'm willing to call the pot and see the next card (or what RA is in such a hurry about)
But, I also got to thinking why I'm willing to do that. There are so many great arguments as to why I'm wrong and I do listen and think about what has been said. So I came down to a military analogy for you.
I trust RA, I think he is a horse like say Patton in France or Grant in Virginia or Sherman.....wait never mind. We are headed into a dark forest and RA wants to attack "something" we just can't see it yet. Guys around me have VERY LEGITIMATE CONCERNS about flanks, supply lines and air cover. I'm not sure either, but based on past performance I'm willing to follow him into the forest. I've got my eyes closed but I'm walking forward
As I said, I think RA is a horse and I think he is going to make us some money. Some of his minions??.....I agree, watch your wallet!!
Ferd
Part two. Got to thinking more this morning and thought I'd drop ya another line. Was going to send a PM, but what the heck.
I'm sure you're tired of reading my poker analogy (I don't think you can just get one of your down cards swapped, you have to wait for the next hand). I don't like my cards either. But, they are good enough for something this short and I'm willing to call the pot and see the next card (or what RA is in such a hurry about)
But, I also got to thinking why I'm willing to do that. There are so many great arguments as to why I'm wrong and I do listen and think about what has been said. So I came down to a military analogy for you.
I trust RA, I think he is a horse like say Patton in France or Grant in Virginia or Sherman.....wait never mind. We are headed into a dark forest and RA wants to attack "something" we just can't see it yet. Guys around me have VERY LEGITIMATE CONCERNS about flanks, supply lines and air cover. I'm not sure either, but based on past performance I'm willing to follow him into the forest. I've got my eyes closed but I'm walking forward
As I said, I think RA is a horse and I think he is going to make us some money. Some of his minions??.....I agree, watch your wallet!!
Ferd
RA clearly knows our DALPA process. As such, he clearly knows that any TA must be voted on by the members. Therefore, it would be insane to hand out your bottom line on the first TA. No negotiator would EVER do that.
Only two possibilities exist:
1. RA doesn't know our process and thought any TA would be automatically voted in. Or,
2. DALPA assured RA that it would be voted in.
This is the only way it would have made sense to divulge your bottom line on the first TA. Just focusing on this particular point...does that make sense to you?
Carl
06-14-2012, 04:25 PM
#207
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
At some time in the future, a no vote might make sense. When our pay is on the top of the industry, and we have little downside risk in that no vote, I might agree with you. But it has been mathematically shown that in 6 short months, the damage done by saying no to this bite of the apple will cost us an additional 5% or more in the amount it will take just to get us back to where this TA takes us. From that standpoint, saying no for pay purposes defies logic. You are convinced that Mr Anderson NEEDS something from us because of his expedited timeline. While that may be true NOW.. and it might even be true 6 months from now, you do not KNOW that he will. Your no vote gambles a 20% pay increase in a little under 3 years. Again, that is foolish based on what you do not know. As Ferd says in his post.. Mr Anderson is like Patton, and you and I as the line grunts do not know the whole battle plan. And I don't know about others here, but I trust MR Anderson with his view of the big strategy than I trust a bunch of *****in' grunts with an agenda and no knowledge of anything outside their own little world.
Don't even get me started on the scope issue.. But let me ax you this.. if this scope proposal was the only thing on the ballot, would you go on strike over it? I wouldn't even consider it, and I'll betcha there are a LOT of others that agree with me on that. This scope is a clear win for this pilot group
Have fun.....
Don't even get me started on the scope issue.. But let me ax you this.. if this scope proposal was the only thing on the ballot, would you go on strike over it? I wouldn't even consider it, and I'll betcha there are a LOT of others that agree with me on that. This scope is a clear win for this pilot group
Have fun.....
Carl
06-14-2012, 04:30 PM
#210
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
The scope that is shrinking the outsourcing....
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