Great Post found on the forum.
05-26-2012, 04:32 PM
#11
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
05-26-2012, 11:52 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Yes BizEx was a connection carrier....but it was really more of a code share ...NOT like the DCI carriers of today. For most of their existence they sold their own tickets and decided their own route structure. If you look at old pictures of the BizEx planes you will see BEX prominently on the tail .....and Delta Connection a much smaller printing on the side of the aircraft. Also, one should note, BizEx was eventually folded into the American Eagle System in the late 90s. Oh... those BAE-146s....at least a couple of them are still flying in Romania.
05-27-2012, 02:42 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,588
Delta purchased the L1011's in part to get some international flying however this time they appeased the brits with the RR engines. They got London. The engines had big problems initially however eventually because a good product. Those initial problems forced Delta to lease DC10's for a brief time period to supplement the Tritanics.
In Apr 1987 Delta once again picked up DC10's with the western purchase. There were 9 airframes and they were all gone in about 2 years. Delta bought used Eastern L1011's to replace them.
05-27-2012, 08:04 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
The 146's were not allowed by the 1986 contract. From the '86 agreement:
SECTION 1
RECOGNITION AND SCOPE
A. RECOGNITION
1. The Air Line Pilots Association, International, has furnished the Company proof that a majority of the airline pilots employed by the Company have designated the Association to represent them and in their behalf negotiate and conclude an Agreement with the Company as to rates of pay, rules and working conditions covering the pilots in the employ of the Company in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
2. Nothing in the Agreement shall be construed to limit or deny any pilot hereunder any rights or privileges to which he may be entitled under the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
B. SCOPE
1. Except as permitted in Paragraph 2 of this Section 1.B., all present or future flying performed in and for the service of the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, shall be performed by the pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement of any other applicable agreement between the Company and the Air Line Pilots Association. There shall be no wet-leasing or subcontracting of the Company’s flying. It is specifically understood that this paragraph includes, but is not limited to, all revenue flying, ferry flights, charters, wet leases and /or subcontracting the Company may perform for others and flight training (except fro initial flight training conducted by the factory or manufacturer for the Company).
2. It is agreed that the Company shall not:
a. Acquire and operate as a separate entity any existing airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which would be owned, controlled ( ie.,(a) operational control, (b) appointment of a majority of the Board of Directors, (c) ownership of majority of stock) or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement between Delta Air Lines and the Air Line Pilots Association, except that this subparagraph shall not preclude separate operation of an acquired airline for a phase-in period of up to one year after the effective date of the acquisition under the seniority list of the acquired airline, provided that no pilot on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list is furloughed during such phase-in period.
b. Establish any new airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which would be owned, controlled or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement between Delta Air Lines and the Air Line Pilots Association.
c. Sell, lease, or otherwise transfer any aircraft owned, leased or operated by the Company, or any new or used airline aircraft on firm order from the manufacturer of owner thereof to any airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which is owned, controlled or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary , unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of the Agreement of any other applicable agreement between Delta Air lines and the Air Line Pilots Association.
3. In the event the Company acquires an airline that operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats in accordance with Paragraph B.2. (a) of this Section:
a. The Company agrees to merge with the acquired airline within one (1) year after the effective date of the acquisition, subject to applicable legal and regulatory requirements;
b. The integration of the seniority lists of the two pilot groups shall be subject to approval by the Company; and
c. Wages and benefits fro the pilots of the acquired airline, to be effective upon the integration of the two seniority lists, shall be negotiated between the Company and Association.
Nothing herein shall entitle either the Company or the Association to negotiate any other provision of the Agreement except as this Agreement otherwise permits.
SECTION 1
RECOGNITION AND SCOPE
A. RECOGNITION
1. The Air Line Pilots Association, International, has furnished the Company proof that a majority of the airline pilots employed by the Company have designated the Association to represent them and in their behalf negotiate and conclude an Agreement with the Company as to rates of pay, rules and working conditions covering the pilots in the employ of the Company in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
2. Nothing in the Agreement shall be construed to limit or deny any pilot hereunder any rights or privileges to which he may be entitled under the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
B. SCOPE
1. Except as permitted in Paragraph 2 of this Section 1.B., all present or future flying performed in and for the service of the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, shall be performed by the pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement of any other applicable agreement between the Company and the Air Line Pilots Association. There shall be no wet-leasing or subcontracting of the Company’s flying. It is specifically understood that this paragraph includes, but is not limited to, all revenue flying, ferry flights, charters, wet leases and /or subcontracting the Company may perform for others and flight training (except fro initial flight training conducted by the factory or manufacturer for the Company).
2. It is agreed that the Company shall not:
a. Acquire and operate as a separate entity any existing airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which would be owned, controlled ( ie.,(a) operational control, (b) appointment of a majority of the Board of Directors, (c) ownership of majority of stock) or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement between Delta Air Lines and the Air Line Pilots Association, except that this subparagraph shall not preclude separate operation of an acquired airline for a phase-in period of up to one year after the effective date of the acquisition under the seniority list of the acquired airline, provided that no pilot on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list is furloughed during such phase-in period.
b. Establish any new airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which would be owned, controlled or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement between Delta Air Lines and the Air Line Pilots Association.
c. Sell, lease, or otherwise transfer any aircraft owned, leased or operated by the Company, or any new or used airline aircraft on firm order from the manufacturer of owner thereof to any airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which is owned, controlled or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary , unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of the Agreement of any other applicable agreement between Delta Air lines and the Air Line Pilots Association.
3. In the event the Company acquires an airline that operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats in accordance with Paragraph B.2. (a) of this Section:
a. The Company agrees to merge with the acquired airline within one (1) year after the effective date of the acquisition, subject to applicable legal and regulatory requirements;
b. The integration of the seniority lists of the two pilot groups shall be subject to approval by the Company; and
c. Wages and benefits fro the pilots of the acquired airline, to be effective upon the integration of the two seniority lists, shall be negotiated between the Company and Association.
Nothing herein shall entitle either the Company or the Association to negotiate any other provision of the Agreement except as this Agreement otherwise permits.
What you state above is wrong.
There is absolutely nothing in that 1986 agreement that prohibited ASA, an independent company, from operating BAE-146's using their own code, and for Delta code to be placed on those ASA flights. That's exactly what happened in 1995, and why the 1996 contract had a specific provision corralling the BAE-146 flying by ASA (1.D.4 covering 20 BAE-146 jets).
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