DAWGS

I think everything cannot possibly be spelled out, but depending on the event, yes most major events can and will be used against us. We live in dangerous times. "But not limited to" is a huge gaping loophole that imo, will be tested if we vote in this POS. The reason it would be tested is dumping the ratios would be a huge win for the company. No negotiation needed. We are already up against a cap. We are very profitable. Why in the world would we negotiate early and put ourselves in a position where the majority of our domestic system could possibly be outsourced?

Israel and Iran would be a FM3...no doubt in my mind about it. Supply disruptions would occur and that is listed as a FM event. Not very far fetched at all given the climate right now. Something will occur regarding Iran very soon, imo.

I have a question for you, why would the "next time hard cap" of 450 be any different than the "this time hard cap" of 255? We are currently defending the 255 hard cap on large RJs. If there ever was a time to defend, it's now because we do have leverage. Your earlier comment alluded to 450 being the hard cap....forever and ever Amen.

Jack Bauer

Another very real and possible event outside the companies control would be another terrorist attack of any sort. Could happen at any time. And even if the company remains profitable they officially have their "out".

DAWGS

No it is not clear. A 50 seat jet doesn't equal a 76 seat jet or a 777. If a jet is outsourced, it is outsourced. If we haven't given it away, it is ours. The amount of flying allowed by the outsourced jet would easily be adjusted in a FM event. IMO, a judge could not outsource a 777 due to a FM event.

tsquare

Except that the current language does not protect us against unlimited Q400s, geared turbofans etc etc etc... Current language allows the company to continue to farm out 343 50 seat RJs.. yes they are going away... eventually. If you are willing to wait until 2024, I certainly am prepared for that. I couldn't care less as those airframes do not affect me. This agreement is a net reduction in airframes which is all you should be looking at at this point. If you are junior, you should be all for this thing as it is going to move the bottom third of the list.

"Not limited to" is standard boiler plate language. It is not a get out of jail, you can do anything you want to card... I'm done talking about that language. Some of you guys need to wisen up about that, and stop the target fixation on something that is a non factor.

Bill Lumberg

Can someone please explain how the operation would work if we flew future 76 seaters? Who would do what? Would there be ASA flight attendants? What would the cost be? Someone please help.

DAWGS

With all due respect, it is a huge factor. I spent 4.5 years thinking all about FM on furlough, when we had a no furlough clause, while Delta hired thousands. I could go on and on but I'll spare you. I am trying to keep our jobs and secondly, spare the new guys from that same injustice.

Denny Crane

Of course a 777 is not going to be outsourced due to a FM event.

The problem is we already HAVE given it away. We already have outsourced 76 seat jets, it's just a matter of how many. In a FM event I can see the company using this argument. "Judge, we need more than 102 more 76 seaters. We are allowed unlimited 50 seaters and are already allowed X amount of 76 seaters . All we want to do is increase the amount of 76 seaters that are already allowed. Oh and we will agree to a limit of 125 50 seaters instead of an unlimited amount."

Maybe I'm cynical but, realistically, in the event of FM3, who do you think will have the edge with a judge/arbitrator? To me, we would be under the gun similar to bankruptcy.

Denny

Bill Lumberg

A terrorist attack on aviation would affect all airlines, just like after 9-11. If people stopped flying, airlines would have to cut back until people came back.

Denny Crane

Well, I'm sorry you were furloughed for 4.5 years but if you think there is anything we can put in a contract to prevent what happened to you from happening again in similar circumstances, I think you are sadly mistaken. In the event an actual FM3 event does happen any judge is going to let the company do what it needs to survive.....FM clause or not. I'm just trying to be realistic.

Denny

TenYearsGone

Raise rents a little every year. Not enough to anger your tenants off but enough that y0u get what you want slowly.

This is what is happening. 30 seats become 44 seats. 44 seats becomes 50 seats. 70 seats become 76 seats. In a few years 76 seats become 100 seats. This process will continue until one day you wake up and see that you have no job. This process is also taking money away from us. It simply will not work.

The TA is well built by attorneys that pilots are now succumbing to the little nuggets and forgoing and rationalizing the slow demise of the main issue; SCOPE and PAY. Please do not rationalize the loosening of SCOPE. The difference between 76 seats and 117 seats is not big. The gap is closing fast.

I do not like what I am reading.

TEN