What if we got the 717s with TODAY's SCOPE?
05-25-2012, 02:34 AM
#141
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I agree we also need limits on large turboprops. Here is my question for those that are ok with adding more large RJs. How do you ever propose to get rid of them? It is much easier to keep them from getting more than to take them away done the road. Once they get on property, we will have to give up something to get rid of them. If we keep the limits , then we save future negiotiating capital. Let the regionals shrink on their own. We are only hurting ourselves down the road if we pass this TA.
05-25-2012, 10:58 AM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 737n/FO
Posts: 667
1. How long does DAL have to get them back into balance?
2. What penalties are assessed while they are out of balance?
3. Do they have to go out of balance in our favor for a year to make up for the year out of balance?
4. Who collects and publishes the numbers to decide what the production balance is?
My view of the scope at this point is probably still naive but I would be in the 1980s denuclearization (is that a word?) "Trust but Verify". I don't want some nebulous clause that relies on the company and the Union running the numbers and then I'm supposed to accept that everything is OK. We see how that worked with AF/KLM. Right now, our current 70/76 seat scope is simple - 255 jets total and DAL is at the limit and can't add any more. These production balances (while sounding encouraging) look like another clause ripe for grievances and abuse.
05-25-2012, 11:27 AM
#143
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Absolutely, while I understand the point of negotiations is some give and take the starting point for this negotiation should have been the 255 number and improving from there. I believe we wasted negotiating capital on the 50 seaters and I'm also suspicious of the Production Balances - I see where they are measured once a year - I can't really find the remedies for being out of balance:
1. How long does DAL have to get them back into balance?
2. What penalties are assessed while they are out of balance?
3. Do they have to go out of balance in our favor for a year to make up for the year out of balance?
4. Who collects and publishes the numbers to decide what the production balance is?
My view of the scope at this point is probably still naive but I would be in the 1980s denuclearization (is that a word?) "Trust but Verify". I don't want some nebulous clause that relies on the company and the Union running the numbers and then I'm supposed to accept that everything is OK. We see how that worked with AF/KLM. Right now, our current 70/76 seat scope is simple - 255 jets total and DAL is at the limit and can't add any more. These production balances (while sounding encouraging) look like another clause ripe for grievances and abuse.
1. How long does DAL have to get them back into balance?
2. What penalties are assessed while they are out of balance?
3. Do they have to go out of balance in our favor for a year to make up for the year out of balance?
4. Who collects and publishes the numbers to decide what the production balance is?
My view of the scope at this point is probably still naive but I would be in the 1980s denuclearization (is that a word?) "Trust but Verify". I don't want some nebulous clause that relies on the company and the Union running the numbers and then I'm supposed to accept that everything is OK. We see how that worked with AF/KLM. Right now, our current 70/76 seat scope is simple - 255 jets total and DAL is at the limit and can't add any more. These production balances (while sounding encouraging) look like another clause ripe for grievances and abuse.
05-25-2012, 07:09 PM
#144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
More importantly than how its calculated or how often, how is it going to be enforced? If we park mainline planes but don't reduce the large RJ's, how are we going to make the company break their contracts with the feeders on the 90 seaters (76 seats installed as per marketing's ideal config) when those iron clad contracts on the 50's are impossible to get out of?
How can our contract force the company to break a DCI contract when the main reason they need (want) relief is because of the DCI contracts they can't get out of in the first place?
05-25-2012, 07:21 PM
#145
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
60 days after the instant it becomes out of balance, or 60 days after a snapshot balancing period that's only measured once a year?
More importantly than how its calculated or how often, how is it going to be enforced? If we park mainline planes but don't reduce the large RJ's, how are we going to make the company break their contracts with the feeders on the 90 seaters (76 seats installed as per marketing's ideal config) when those iron clad contracts on the 50's are impossible to get out of?
How can our contract force the company to break a DCI contract when the main reason they need (want) relief is because of the DCI contracts they can't get out of in the first place?
More importantly than how its calculated or how often, how is it going to be enforced? If we park mainline planes but don't reduce the large RJ's, how are we going to make the company break their contracts with the feeders on the 90 seaters (76 seats installed as per marketing's ideal config) when those iron clad contracts on the 50's are impossible to get out of?
How can our contract force the company to break a DCI contract when the main reason they need (want) relief is because of the DCI contracts they can't get out of in the first place?
Carl
05-26-2012, 05:10 AM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 248
60 days after the instant it becomes out of balance, or 60 days after a snapshot balancing period that's only measured once a year?
More importantly than how its calculated or how often, how is it going to be enforced? If we park mainline planes but don't reduce the large RJ's, how are we going to make the company break their contracts with the feeders on the 90 seaters (76 seats installed as per marketing's ideal config) when those iron clad contracts on the 50's are impossible to get out of?
How can our contract force the company to break a DCI contract when the main reason they need (want) relief is because of the DCI contracts they can't get out of in the first place?
More importantly than how its calculated or how often, how is it going to be enforced? If we park mainline planes but don't reduce the large RJ's, how are we going to make the company break their contracts with the feeders on the 90 seaters (76 seats installed as per marketing's ideal config) when those iron clad contracts on the 50's are impossible to get out of?
How can our contract force the company to break a DCI contract when the main reason they need (want) relief is because of the DCI contracts they can't get out of in the first place?
I believe it is measured twice a year.
And enforcement is key. I really kind of like the block hour ratio idea, but it is worthless if it is not enforced. (past practice makes me a little skeptical.)
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