Elliot

Shoelu,

I never said there "wasn't enough blame to go around", stop taking things out of context. I used "ONE EXAMPLE", (so you don't take my words so literally again) of why things have gotten out of control. Just to help you out Shoelu, I'll answer each of your questions above.

Can I honestly see absolutely no culpability on the part of my own company?

No, like I said above, there's enough blame to go around. I don't think SWA, starting as a "Low Cost Carrier" in the market did anyone else any favors, but "YES" DAL/NWA/United/CAL and everyone else is to blame for releasing scope too.

Was it not Delta leading the charge in releasing scope?

In 1991, or maybe 1992, (someone help out with the exact date) "YES" Delta had their first CRJ-100 show up on property at Comair. A union decision that has haunted career pilots for 20 years now.

Did that not help allow more and more pilots the ability to work for peanuts while flying Delta code?

It did, and all the while, SWA pilots were working for "substandard, below industry leading wages" to get their foot in the door. READ AGAIN: NOT RAISING THE BAR, NO MAINTAINING IT, BUT HELPING TO LOWER IT FOR THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY!!

Is it not Delta that outsources more of its flying to the lowest bidder than any other airline?

You got me there. Is it not SWA mainline planes still flying homeless people from Chicago-Midway to Harlingen, TX?

Did Delta not slash compensation during bankruptcy lowering the bar for "industry standard wages?"

Delta cut compensation in bankruptcy. So did NWA, and United and US Air during TWO BANKRUPTCIES only 8-months apart. What's your point? Each of these airlines that filed for bankruptcy, were using the laws/rules of bankruptcy to lower costs. (Sounding familiar coming from a Lower Cost Carrier model that never had "industry leading wages, in the first place, until everyone else went through bankruptcy reorganization?)

Thanks for listening,

GJ

shoelu

OK. Let's both go through this line by line.

1) Which is it no there is no culpability or yes, but we weren't the only ones to blame?
2) So Delta did in fact lead the charge in releasing scope, but now we wished the hadn't?
3) Everyone except the industry leader works for "substandard, below industry leading wages." This is exactly the position we are in currently. SWA has industry leading wages and Delta has "substandard, below industry leading wages."
4) At least we can agree that Delta is the leader in outsourcing. As for the second portion, yes it is in fact SWA mainline flying ALL our flights. Of course we don't fly from MDW to HRL, but don't let facts get in the way of your assertions. So, which is it, are we a low cost carrier that homeless people can afford or are we not truly a low cost carrier?
5) Again with the tired argument that we did what everyone else did? I agree, there is a lot of blame to go around in the BK charade, but please at least attempt to own up to your portion of the blame. As a follow up, isn't SWA the only one propping up industry wages by not entering BK and slashing employee compensation?

R57 relay

I didn't utter "Dude", I thought "I flew with that guy!"

newKnow

You could have. He wouldn't have heard you.

Jack Bauer

Does anybody here know just how much power the labor groups at American have in the decision making process during BK? I know there are a couple groups, including the pilots, with a seat on the creditors committee.

It seems to me if they had much pull at all, and had incentive to go one way or the other, they could try to influence the remaining creditors vs what Thomas Horton is selling. To take this a step further, if the labor groups were given incentive to pair up with Delta they would use whatever influence they had to effect their best outcome change. More specifically Horton will want sizable wage reductions from the work groups at American. Delta (aka Richard Anderson) could upsell the American labor groups by promising to keep their pay roughly the same or possibly increase with the not yet known pay increases being called for by the DPA. I say DPA because we have no idea what ALPA will ask for because its a secret until the 11th hour.


Another observation. If Delta really is interested in purchasing American the timing seems to be in their favor. SWA/Airtran busy working out their system/integration. UCAL busy working out their system/integration tying both of their hands to some degree in making a power play.

All that said, I still think a merger of DAL/AA would be bad for Delta pilots with stagnation for years to come as further capacity is reduced.

acl65pilot

A lot of what you say makes a lot of sense, but if you think that any labor group is going to get a huge raise with AMR in CH11 you are kidding yourself. It may take years for this to get sorted out if they are a stand alone and no one will budge until they know what their costs are concessions are going to be.

That said, DALPA or DPA for that matter may be will advised to take 15, 20%, etc if DAL offers it for an extension because it may be the best offer you see before 2015. Not saying that is the plan because I do not know. The only way you will see DAL or UAL offer anything of a substantial raise is if they want help in the purchase of assets with or without pilots. This is true for AMR, also any other carrier out there. The best leverage any labor group has with AMR in protection is their companies need for labor peace to complete a transaction. It is big leverage, and should not be sold cheaply, but it also pays to understand what their filing does to DAL's section 6 possibilities over the next few years.

Reality sucks sometimes, and the timing of this filing really hurts the profession.

acl65pilot

Jack, look and see what creditors board labor sits on in the AMR case.

Elliot

Good day,

GJ

P.S. Be more than happy to discuss this in person some time. Have many friends at SWA, and don't dislike the airline or it's employees one iota. I think it to be slightly "naive" to go around touting your contract, and it being your reasoning for the Air Tran guys "losing their livelihood and seniority over it, but other than that, we're all in the same fight.

eaglefly

If I was an outside entity and I wanted to burrow my snout as deep as possible into AA, I'd look to turn the unions (roughly 40% on the creditors committee) against the management that has done what they've done to them for the last 8 years. That would involve a plan with minimum damage to their jobs and compensation (if any). I think AMR management might know this (I would HOPE they do) and would look to draw labor CLOSER instead of alienate them. With 3 of the 7 seats on the creditors committee, AA's unions have influence, but that doesn't mean they will call the shots and ALL parties inside the AA reorganization must be careful what they plan and do. Sometimes these things go in unintended directions.......directions that are hard to reverse.

For instance, let's just say for arguments sake, DAL comes in and takes a shot at the sweetest, creamiest pieces of the AA cake (pieces they'd like, that would do them good). If successful, great for DAL, but what does that leave the creditors (including AA labor) ?

Would AA's creditors (including labor) be better off just handing over their frosting to a competitor making themselves less palatable (and competitively dead) ?

*the remianing scraps wouldn't do a stand-alone AA or U much good.

Would the non-union creditors make as much money on selling a minority of AA to DAL, leaving the remaining scraps virtually worthless vs. an intact and competitively robust carrier in a position to make necessary changes after chapter 11 exit ?

Would DAL be willing to pay such a premium for only the pieces it needs, it would outbid another who bids for the entire operation ?

If DAL wants AA pieces so badly, how would they convince the union labor that skimming the frosting ONLY is best for ALL AA employee interests (including those left behind sitting on the stale cake) ?

If DAL is successful in skimming that frosting, what happens to the pensions of those AA employees tossed to the street in the inevitable liquidation ?

Could the surviving stale cake left behind after DAL's frosting-skimming prop up pensions as it goes increasingly stale on the table, having had its frosting skimmed ?

Could that scenario just force (and give an excuse to) the wreckage of the former AA to then successfully dump the remainder of those pensions on the taxpayers and PBGC, who is on record that it doesn't want that 9 billion liability dumped on its back (adding to the 26 billion submergence it already has) ?

Convincing the creditors commitee that a break-up is in everyones best interest is FAR from a certainty, but within the realm of possibilities, it's just not as simple as the claims of some here believe it to be. Likewise, labor being wooed AWAY from current management is possible and thus it would seem current AMR management would need an ally, so may be less likely to gut them completely, simply to maintain leverage and increase control. THAT would in-turn have to convince the other creditors (non-union) that whatever internal scenario occurs is also best for them. Let's not forget that if this thing gets out of control and AMR has a reason to dump 10 billion in pension liabilities on the PBGC (of which 9 billion they are.........er, oops........all of YOU are on the hook for), they will then become the biggest creditor.

I wouldn't be surprised if DAL (and perhaps soon UAL) are simply muddying up the water to knock AMR off balance for awhile, increasing uncertainty and driving up AMR's restructuring costs (and competitive strategy) and really have little intention of forced seppuku. AMR CAN seek to extend their period of exclusivity beyond 6 months to as long as 18 months effectively keeping all outside suitors at bay for the entire reorganization, of course creditors could object and any such request could be denied.

The creditors (especially non-union) may have strong shot-calling ability, but they've got to be very careful where they aim their guns and be damn sure of the consequences and result once they pull any given trigger.

TheManager

Eagle. Seriously, inorder to stay sane during this bk process, give it a break. There is nothing one can do until a moment arrives where labor's help can be used (i.e. the "Keep Delta my Delta" campaign against USAirways.)

Do something for yourself, family, anything. Don't let the process eat you up as it can if you let it.

Finally, consider this. As it was related to me during the DAL bk, just about every airline expressed "interest" in DAL. This allowed them a free look at the books in which they could glean competitive information. That very well could be what this is all about.

Don't let this whole thing consume you.