Opus

Framing? I think it's called reading, that is, reading material that is out there on the topic. What do I wish to happen? I hope that AA stays in tact, the pilots get a pay raise and keeps the "low costs" carriers at bay. If AA fragments, then that is going to open the door for for who knows what start ups or low cost carriers to fill in the void undercutting fares for the rest of the industry. AA fragmenting is not in the best interest of anybody nor do I wish this. What I was endeavoring to say is that the creditors are very much in control and they are very much considering fragmenting AA. With this being stated it is not about APA throwing up the white flag, it is about AA being proactive and working out a deal that is in the best interest of all involved. Creditors love union harmony especially when it comes to pilots.
So, I am confused at what your solution is. AA takes massive pay cuts so they can be number 1 again? Buy new airplanes and take on more debt? You do know that AA doesn't have financing yet for that big aircraft order, but, interestingly enough that order does give AA a lot of bargaining power if they were merged.

As for insulting me, please, save your breath. The line is already too long.

satpak77

Guys lets not turn this into the other board which most of us left. I share some accountability if I put fuel onto this fire, but I am sure we can discuss things smartly without making fun of each others mother, etc.

What

Actually the first wave of aircraft is finance by either Boeing, Airbus or third parties. AMR will be leasing the aircraft instead of purchasing them, they made this clear when they made the order. It seems that AMR has been planing this bankruptcy for a long time, so far the pieces seem to be falling in place. AMR will receive around 40 737s this year (not part of the big aircraft order.

Elliot

Eaglefly,

First of all, I'm not your "dude". Hate that term, and when people use it, I assume they're of the preference of "alternative lifestyle". Don't get me wrong, it's all fine if you want to look at guys (dudes) instead of underboob and chicks like the rest of us on this board, but please don't push your flamboyant ways towards me or anyone else on this forum. I already have to deal with it in the military now that the Commander-in-Chief wanted their votes too.

Secondly, you tell me to Wake The F** Up? I think you're the one who's been having to defend your position the entire time on this thread. I feel sorry for you and the rest of your pilot group for having such "INCOMPETENT" management, but EVEN SPECULATING (whether you hope for it or not) ABOUT YOUR PILOT GROUP COMING OUT OF BK, FLYING MAINLINE AIRPLANES FOR REGIONAL AIRLINE PAY RATES IS ABHORRENT!! (Definition: causing repugnance, loathsome)

So, to someone (YOU) who interviewed at a REGIONAL AIRLINE, and has obtained a seniority number at a MAJOR AIRLINE, why don't you keep your comments to the Regional Forum. That's really the only interview process that you've passed anyway.

Good day,

GJ

eaglefly

Well, if you go strictly by reading what's out there, you could also go by Horton's statement that pilots will make more money, but work harder to get it. I'll wait and see what AMR's term sheet says first. Again, I don't believe in the least your assertion that the creditors are "very much considering fragmenting AA".

How can they come to ANY conclusion when neither AMR nor anyone else has even put forth a business plan yet ?

In fact, the first buzzards to circle (DAL, TPG and U) have only just hired their consultants to simply ADVISE them of the potential benefits and drawbacks. You are WAY too far ahead of the game with these conclusions of certainty.

As for fragmenting itself, I'm sorry to say that fragmenting is DEFINATELY in the best interest of SOME, hence the persuit of that as a possible (though unlikely, IMO) outcome. If it wasn't no buzzards would be overhead surveying the landscape now.

My solution is to gather more information and see what AMR's business plan is, what is the reaction to that from creditors, what AMR seeks from labor, what attitude they display toward labor as either future collaborators as the provider of the product or simply still as "bricks in their backpack". In other words, GET PROPER INFORMATION TO ACCURATELY DETERMINE THE SITUATION.

6 weeks into this thing and running around in a state of desperation and/or hysteria doesn't seem the correct tack to me. AA is in the process of working out a deal that is best for THEM, that's for sure. The question first is, "what's that deal" ?

Only then can you begin to proceed in a certain direction regarding strategy. Supposedly, the APA has been planning for several months before the filing on chapter 11 and considering all scenarios, so I don't think your plan of raising the gear before you've left the ground is prudent, but perhaps those in control of the situation will take it under advisement.

eaglefly

I agree, I hate it too. Although I grew up in the 70's listening to Zeppelin and Floyd, etc., when discussing the airline industry with fellow pilots, "dude" and "bro" are right up there with "gnarly", "awesome" and "most excellent". Unfortunately, that's the "professional slang" used by many of those in their 20's and even 30's nowadays (right along with moussed, spikey hair, backpacks and ipods). When I left Eagle, it was becoming rampant, but I digress.

Sorry to offend, it was more in humor and confronting the depressing reality of where this professions isn't going, but HAS GONE.

Then, I'm afraid you are in denial. Take a look at US Airways compensation, if you don't believe me. They have 20 year plus professionals in their 50's making less then I did at Eagle.....in some cases, WAY less. As for what I say about the POSSIBILITIES of what AA gets if they seek (and are successful), I think it's not only acceptable to confront that, it's MANDATORY. If you want an example of where denial has gotten this profession, review the story of the RJ.

Ahh, now I understand. In addition to demanding what others say, approving their opinions and where "they" should go or stay, you retain the right to insinuate I'm incompetent. Well, I must have really slipped through. I completed training at AA with no extra sim, ground or IOE and have performed competently on the line and in my recent R9. Quite frankly, Eagle's training was far more stressful and difficult, but those at AA were superb to me anyway. They bent over backwards to accomodate any personal issues you had and for those that needed a bit extra, they provided that, no questions (up to a point, of course). You're still free to consider me a toothless loser simply because we disagree though, I won't strip you of that pleasure.

May your day also be a fine one, Sir.

eaglefly

Certainly hope so. I make enough fun of my mother as it is.

Elliot

Sir, you and I then have to agree to disagree. Calling the "RJ Explosion" a "denial" is, in my opinion, mislabeling how we've gotten where we are in the first place.

Little history. (I know you know this too.) In 1965, a little "commuter" airline in Texas, cleared the multiple hurdles, and was able to get an airline "off the ground". (pun intended) Their first three routes were between DAL/SAT/HOU airports.

Fast forward 47.5 years, and Harvard MBA's are using the bankruptcy process as a management tool, versus what it was back when airlines such as Braniff, TWA, Eastern, etc. were in business, a "faux paux" term of mismanaged companies and poor leadership.

The ironic part about all of this is that Southwest Airlines, the organization that I truly blame for causing the "labor meltdown, race to the bottom" (toilet bowl and turd analogy) is now facing "higher" costs than all their domestic competitors. (Other than AA, of course, but that's soon to be seen as well.)

So, you see, I get a little "hot under the collar" when someone else says that they "could possibly see" American Airlines, a once and still great airline, coming out of bankruptcy, and once again lowering the bar for "industry standard wages". (I know you don't agree with it, but just the fact that it could happen is bad enough.)


My apologies for referencing your career and the regional forum. We all take different career paths, and am sure you are just as good of a pilot, or better than any of your mainline American colleagues.

I took the WTFU..dude, as a personal jab, and should've clarified prior to "firing back". Hope you and all your American/American Eagle colleagues the best throughout the bankruptcy process.

Again, it's a "spineless" management tactic for poor leadership, lack of ideas, and failing business plans.

Fly safe,

GJ

eaglefly

Yes, we disagree. Nothing wrong with that and it doesn't mean one is right and the other wrong. If we're going to blame Southwest, why not any number of other low-cost carriers like People's Express or Skybus, etc. It matters little if they survived or not, but it does matter they had pilots falling overthemselves to fly mainline-sized aircraft for peanuts, ostensibly to "get ahead". The union(s) had the chance to CONTROL the RJ, by controlling the pilots, but instead of looking long-term and "keeping your friends close, but your enemies closer", they took the short-term emotional "feel good" reaction and continued the cast-out "us and them" mentality. Management exploited that prefect hole in the skirmish line and slipped cleanly through like sappers in the night and the rest is history.

Sure felt good then, but well.........look around the next hub when you're there and shake your head. All management did was run with a football WE gave them.

As far as AA's destiny, as one whose junior and will be among the first bodies likely to fall on that battlefield, it gives me no pleasure to identify that the opposition is heavilty armed, fortified, has battlefiled advantage and is developing a plan of attack which they have the element of surprise on to understand and accept the potential realistic outcome of that.

No worries mate. Actually I've moved up on this forum. I used to be called a "lifer, loser" for being at a regional for 20 years by some mainline pilots and being whacked around pretty good be SOME AA pilots for meeting with Carty and convincing him to order all those RJ's (sarcasm there) so getting kicked on the other side of my arse doesn't hurt that bad.

Being a poor ex-Eagle schmuck, there's really no decent foxholes for me.

acl65pilot

Specifically Rolls and the DFW airport board. Rolls wants their cash and better risk, and the DFW Airport board wants at least two major carriers in DFW post CH11.

Even AMR's attorney is picking interesting words.

One other scenario has you keeping AMR intact and the rest of the industry consolidating around you well you are in protection. The end result is that the creditors will not have better risk or better revenue from your trip though CH11.

I know pilots hate to see their fiefdoms attacked, and DAL pilots were and are no different. CH11 sucks, and trust me, they will come at APA will an iron fist. If AMR is going to be a stand alone who eventually has a merger post CH11, the employees are going to take it in the shorts big time. Even then it will not come close to solving the issues that AMR faces on the revenue side.

Just to get close to the revenue generation possibilities of UAL and DAL, you would need one more domestic code share; B6, and two or three international JV's. Not alliance partners, but profit sharing partners like AF/KLM/AZ are to DAL. Because you are in CH11 they would not be favored to the APA side. That big of a hit on top of Horton's desire to kill not just bottom end scope, but top and middle end means that you would have to give up the farm to keep AMR intact. In the end that would start another round of concessions at the other carriers. Its an ugly death spiral. It too is quite possible, and as a result we would see a second decade of horrible pay. In the end it comes down to the APA pilots deciding how much they want to give, and then the creditors deciding if it is good enough to let their assets stay at AMR. This far past the traditional CH11 filings, it makes it quite uncertain if AMR will survive as an intact carrier.

Everyone thinks that these moves by the other carriers are head fakes. In the end they may not act,but they will reduce the effectiveness of AMR's debt slashing. That puts the pressure of softer targets like labor.

I much prefer that AMR is not where they are. It sucks for their employees, and the end result will hurt the entire piloting profession. The whole thing is far too late in the game.