Delta and TPG look To put bid on AMR Corp
01-17-2012, 08:07 PM
#291
Working weekends
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 2,384
So, I guess the "lesson" you are trying to teach is that we as employees should never seek self help. Just shut up, accept whatever, and be happy we have a job.
While I am very happy to have a job, I also have to have dignity. The reasons you suggest for not doing anything (kids in college, mortgage payment, & nearing retirement), exists for employees who don't work for bankrupt companies. So, what's your point? It seems that it just to take it, because we can't do anything anyway. What a shame.
I won't even mention the individual flight attendant groups who have successfully protested, or rejected a proposed contract, to exact positive change. Ok. Yes, I will. (American and NWA). A lot of people on this thread have also been on strike and a lot of people on this thread have also vehemently protested a merger/takeover by another airline, successfully. I hope a lot of them disagree with you, because I sure do.
Good luck is right, Amigo. Because, if attitudes like yours are predominant, we don't stand a chance.
While I am very happy to have a job, I also have to have dignity. The reasons you suggest for not doing anything (kids in college, mortgage payment, & nearing retirement), exists for employees who don't work for bankrupt companies. So, what's your point? It seems that it just to take it, because we can't do anything anyway. What a shame.
I won't even mention the individual flight attendant groups who have successfully protested, or rejected a proposed contract, to exact positive change. Ok. Yes, I will. (American and NWA). A lot of people on this thread have also been on strike and a lot of people on this thread have also vehemently protested a merger/takeover by another airline, successfully. I hope a lot of them disagree with you, because I sure do.
Good luck is right, Amigo. Because, if attitudes like yours are predominant, we don't stand a chance.
01-17-2012, 08:27 PM
#293
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 737n/FO
Posts: 667
Explain this to me because I am confused how employees of a bankrupt company, with a wrecked pension plan, at a company being taken over by a non-bankrupt company, can "stop" anything. DAL/ALPA buying AMR/APA. I get a headache just thinking about that legal quagmire, when the pilot trying to teach DAL a lesson gets fired. Wonder how successful he will be in that battle. Good luck amigo.
How can the pilots "show" anyone anything ? We have seen this TV show before. What merger/takeover in airline history was stopped by pilots ? Hmm, not sure if this climate is the time to be the "first" at anything.
Call me a panzee, but if I was a 48, 52, 55 year old employed pilot, likely with a teenage kid planning on entering college, and a mortage payment, I wouldn't be trying to teach anyone a lesson....
Cooperate, Graduate
** side note: recently, a bunch of pilots at Mexicana, an AA code share, some of which were Captains earning the equivalent of $15,000 a month (pretty good especially if you live in Mexico) wanted higher pay. They struck and refused to fly, to "show the company." Company says, come on guys, the world economy, etc blah blah, we are hurting, we can't do it. "Nah, we are gonna teach you a lesson" Mr Employer.
Fast forward, company shut DOWN, CEASED OPERATIONS, BYE BYE, DONE, EL FIN. Pilots are all unemployed some working as cab drivers in Mexico City.
They sure came out on top of that one. A lesson was taught alright......or learned ?
How can the pilots "show" anyone anything ? We have seen this TV show before. What merger/takeover in airline history was stopped by pilots ? Hmm, not sure if this climate is the time to be the "first" at anything.
Call me a panzee, but if I was a 48, 52, 55 year old employed pilot, likely with a teenage kid planning on entering college, and a mortage payment, I wouldn't be trying to teach anyone a lesson....
Cooperate, Graduate
** side note: recently, a bunch of pilots at Mexicana, an AA code share, some of which were Captains earning the equivalent of $15,000 a month (pretty good especially if you live in Mexico) wanted higher pay. They struck and refused to fly, to "show the company." Company says, come on guys, the world economy, etc blah blah, we are hurting, we can't do it. "Nah, we are gonna teach you a lesson" Mr Employer.
Fast forward, company shut DOWN, CEASED OPERATIONS, BYE BYE, DONE, EL FIN. Pilots are all unemployed some working as cab drivers in Mexico City.
They sure came out on top of that one. A lesson was taught alright......or learned ?
01-17-2012, 08:30 PM
#294
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Well, let's see.............................
NWA strike of '98: I think we did better than what they initially offered. Got rid of B scale.
DAL pilots in 2007(?): They didn't become US Airways pilots.
.................................................. .................................................. ...................So, I think it worked out ok.
NWA strike of '98: I think we did better than what they initially offered. Got rid of B scale.
DAL pilots in 2007(?): They didn't become US Airways pilots.
.................................................. .................................................. ...................So, I think it worked out ok.
01-18-2012, 04:33 AM
#295
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Eaglefly,
Amr is the first airline to go into BK under the new rules. The new laws give creditors much more power than they had before. The fact that their are now bidders demonstrates that the creditors have put their assets up for sale. Amr is along for the ride. No amount of pay cuts from the employees will be able to solve the debt/revenue problem that Amr has. Further, Oneworld has fallen significantly behind Star and Skyteam. The lack of production from JAL and the 1.3B AA had to pay to keep its relationship JAL has been a major money loser for Amr. The fact that the DFW board is already advocating to regulators that they want two major carriers at DFW in lieu of one if AA fragments, and that the creditors are aggressively looking for buyers demonstrates that the process is going in a completely different direction than the other airline BKs. Finally Horton is not a manager, he is spokesman. He even stated that AA would have "a say" in the process thus admitting that fragmentation was a real possibility. He has yet to assure employees that Amr will be a stand alone company coming out of BK. Further, Amr hasn't even filed what concessions they want from their employees as they know pay cuts won't solve the problem. As for pilots being apathetic about the destruction of their jobs. Please. Really? What power did the USAir pilots have in BK? Or United, Delta or NW? Did anyone care? Any congressman, senator or traveller? Not that I saw. If you want to blame anybody blame AA management for their failures, specifically for buying TWA and taking on their debt, building that big terminal at DFW, not merging with Northwest and getting the Pacific and KLM Skyteam and pushing Delta out to the stand alone airline. But blaming pilots for not caring is ridiculous.
What APA should be doing is proactively working with Dalpa to find some kind of an agreement that they could sell to the creditors and save as many jobs as they can. It's harsh to say AA is a land without a king but Horton is a great speaker not leader. That maybe an asset if the message that must be delivered is delivered by an eloquent voice but in the end the news is still bad.
Amr is the first airline to go into BK under the new rules. The new laws give creditors much more power than they had before. The fact that their are now bidders demonstrates that the creditors have put their assets up for sale. Amr is along for the ride. No amount of pay cuts from the employees will be able to solve the debt/revenue problem that Amr has. Further, Oneworld has fallen significantly behind Star and Skyteam. The lack of production from JAL and the 1.3B AA had to pay to keep its relationship JAL has been a major money loser for Amr. The fact that the DFW board is already advocating to regulators that they want two major carriers at DFW in lieu of one if AA fragments, and that the creditors are aggressively looking for buyers demonstrates that the process is going in a completely different direction than the other airline BKs. Finally Horton is not a manager, he is spokesman. He even stated that AA would have "a say" in the process thus admitting that fragmentation was a real possibility. He has yet to assure employees that Amr will be a stand alone company coming out of BK. Further, Amr hasn't even filed what concessions they want from their employees as they know pay cuts won't solve the problem. As for pilots being apathetic about the destruction of their jobs. Please. Really? What power did the USAir pilots have in BK? Or United, Delta or NW? Did anyone care? Any congressman, senator or traveller? Not that I saw. If you want to blame anybody blame AA management for their failures, specifically for buying TWA and taking on their debt, building that big terminal at DFW, not merging with Northwest and getting the Pacific and KLM Skyteam and pushing Delta out to the stand alone airline. But blaming pilots for not caring is ridiculous.
What APA should be doing is proactively working with Dalpa to find some kind of an agreement that they could sell to the creditors and save as many jobs as they can. It's harsh to say AA is a land without a king but Horton is a great speaker not leader. That maybe an asset if the message that must be delivered is delivered by an eloquent voice but in the end the news is still bad.
01-18-2012, 05:33 AM
#296
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Captain Jack
Posts: 1,003
Explain this to me because I am confused how employees of a bankrupt company, with a wrecked pension plan, at a company being taken over by a non-bankrupt company, can "stop" anything. DAL/ALPA buying AMR/APA. I get a headache just thinking about that legal quagmire, when the pilot trying to teach DAL a lesson gets fired. Wonder how successful he will be in that battle. Good luck amigo.
How can the pilots "show" anyone anything ? We have seen this TV show before. What merger/takeover in airline history was stopped by pilots ? Hmm, not sure if this climate is the time to be the "first" at anything.
Call me a panzee, but if I was a 48, 52, 55 year old employed pilot, likely with a teenage kid planning on entering college, and a mortage payment, I wouldn't be trying to teach anyone a lesson....
Cooperate, Graduate
** side note: recently, a bunch of pilots at Mexicana, an AA code share, some of which were Captains earning the equivalent of $15,000 a month (pretty good especially if you live in Mexico) wanted higher pay. They struck and refused to fly, to "show the company." Company says, come on guys, the world economy, etc blah blah, we are hurting, we can't do it. "Nah, we are gonna teach you a lesson" Mr Employer.
Fast forward, company shut DOWN, CEASED OPERATIONS, BYE BYE, DONE, EL FIN. Pilots are all unemployed some working as cab drivers in Mexico City.
They sure came out on top of that one. A lesson was taught alright......or learned ?
How can the pilots "show" anyone anything ? We have seen this TV show before. What merger/takeover in airline history was stopped by pilots ? Hmm, not sure if this climate is the time to be the "first" at anything.
Call me a panzee, but if I was a 48, 52, 55 year old employed pilot, likely with a teenage kid planning on entering college, and a mortage payment, I wouldn't be trying to teach anyone a lesson....
Cooperate, Graduate
** side note: recently, a bunch of pilots at Mexicana, an AA code share, some of which were Captains earning the equivalent of $15,000 a month (pretty good especially if you live in Mexico) wanted higher pay. They struck and refused to fly, to "show the company." Company says, come on guys, the world economy, etc blah blah, we are hurting, we can't do it. "Nah, we are gonna teach you a lesson" Mr Employer.
Fast forward, company shut DOWN, CEASED OPERATIONS, BYE BYE, DONE, EL FIN. Pilots are all unemployed some working as cab drivers in Mexico City.
They sure came out on top of that one. A lesson was taught alright......or learned ?
How do you think that pilot pay got as high as it has, saying please?
01-18-2012, 06:38 AM
#298
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 60
What maneuvering? AMR is going to have an 18 month exclusivity period. There have been no bids on assets, only uninformed media speculation on nuggets planted by sources trying to influence the sausage making process one way or another. The only material actions taken to date are rejection of leases on airplanes sitting in Roswell or coming up on per-retirement heavy checks and shuttered maintenance bases.
If stakeholders of the creditors committee have an interest in an independent airline, it would seem to me that planting stories about liquidating assets, aqcuisition, or fragmentation, would create some FUD amongst those parties, increasing what they would otherwise sacrifice to achieve a desired outcome. Given that 1113 term sheets are imminent and the end of the exclusivity period is in the summer of 2013, the timing of such speculation seems a bit suspect.
If stakeholders of the creditors committee have an interest in an independent airline, it would seem to me that planting stories about liquidating assets, aqcuisition, or fragmentation, would create some FUD amongst those parties, increasing what they would otherwise sacrifice to achieve a desired outcome. Given that 1113 term sheets are imminent and the end of the exclusivity period is in the summer of 2013, the timing of such speculation seems a bit suspect.
01-18-2012, 06:45 AM
#299
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
My guess is AMR plans to keep its fleet (and market share), exit chapter 11 and then re-fleet over the next few years. At some point AFTER chapter 11 exit is when I think any merger deal (if any) will occur.
Amr is along for the ride. No amount of pay cuts from the employees will be able to solve the debt/revenue problem that Amr has. Further, Oneworld has fallen significantly behind Star and Skyteam. The lack of production from JAL and the 1.3B AA had to pay to keep its relationship JAL has been a major money loser for Amr. The fact that the DFW board is already advocating to regulators that they want two major carriers at DFW in lieu of one if AA fragments, and that the creditors are aggressively looking for buyers demonstrates that the process is going in a completely different direction than the other airline BKs. Finally Horton is not a manager, he is spokesman. He even stated that AA would have "a say" in the process thus admitting that fragmentation was a real possibility. He has yet to assure employees that Amr will be a stand alone company coming out of BK.
Further, Amr hasn't even filed what concessions they want from their employees as they know pay cuts wont solve the problem. As for pilots being apathetic about the destruction of their jobs. Please. Really? What power did the USAir pilots have in BK? Or United, Delta or NW? Did anyone care? Any congressman, senator or traveller? Not that I saw. If you want to blame anybody blame AA management for their failures, specifically for buying TWA and taking on their debt, building that big terminal at DFW, not merging with Northwest and getting the Pacific and KLM Skyteam and pushing Delta out to the stand alone airline. But blaming pilots for not caring is ridiculous.
What APA should be doing is proactively working with Dalpa to find some kind of an agreement that they could sell to the creditors and save as many jobs as they can. It's harsh to say AA is a land without a king but Horton is a great speaker not leader. That maybe an asset if the message that must be delivered is delivered by an eloquent voice but in the end the news is still bad.
What APA should be doing is proactively working with Dalpa to find some kind of an agreement that they could sell to the creditors and save as many jobs as they can. It's harsh to say AA is a land without a king but Horton is a great speaker not leader. That maybe an asset if the message that must be delivered is delivered by an eloquent voice but in the end the news is still bad.
Finally, your assertion that AA pilots or the APA should just drop to their knees sobbing and clutch the pant legs of another pilot groups union to minimize damage that hasn't been identified yet and may never occur is laughable and beyond absurd. The APA hasn't even GOTTEN an 1113 yet and you're advocating waving a white flag and calling into the forest for help from anyone. In fact, it's the last sentance that got pilots where they are today and it's ironic how you pontificate what you have in this post that pilots aren't to blame, then expect a pilots group to crumble before there is even reason.
Thanks for making my day, man. Your post was rich, indeed !
01-18-2012, 06:49 AM
#300
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
What maneuvering? AMR is going to have an 18 month exclusivity period. There have been no bids on assets, only uninformed media speculation on nuggets planted by sources trying to influence the sausage making process one way or another. The only material actions taken to date are rejection of leases on airplanes sitting in Roswell or coming up on per-retirement heavy checks and shuttered maintenance bases.
If stakeholders of the creditors committee have an interest in an independent airline, it would seem to me that planting stories about liquidating assets, aqcuisition, or fragmentation, would create some FUD amongst those parties, increasing what they would otherwise sacrifice to achieve a desired outcome. Given that 1113 term sheets are imminent and the end of the exclusivity period is in the summer of 2013, the timing of such speculation seems a bit suspect.
If stakeholders of the creditors committee have an interest in an independent airline, it would seem to me that planting stories about liquidating assets, aqcuisition, or fragmentation, would create some FUD amongst those parties, increasing what they would otherwise sacrifice to achieve a desired outcome. Given that 1113 term sheets are imminent and the end of the exclusivity period is in the summer of 2013, the timing of such speculation seems a bit suspect.
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