USAPA loses LOA93
12-09-2011, 11:18 AM
#21
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Carl,
So the question becomes who were the incompetent negotiators who didn't follow standard practice to take (and retain) detailed notes? Doesn't matter who the bargaining agent is or was in this case. It's the individuals assigned to do the job who should be questioned.
So the question becomes who were the incompetent negotiators who didn't follow standard practice to take (and retain) detailed notes? Doesn't matter who the bargaining agent is or was in this case. It's the individuals assigned to do the job who should be questioned.
12-09-2011, 11:26 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Carl,
While I agree with part of your statement, I'd say it would be blanket coverage to all of ALPA in this matter. At my previous airline as a representative, I was able to see shelves of 3-ring binders filled with negotiating notes taken during the negotiating process. It was explained to me by the attorney that these were kept specifically for future grievances to show intent at the negotiating table should the need arise.
So the question becomes who were the incompetent negotiators who didn't follow standard practice to take (and retain) detailed notes? Doesn't matter who the bargaining agent is or was in this case. It's the individuals assigned to do the job who should be questioned.
While I agree with part of your statement, I'd say it would be blanket coverage to all of ALPA in this matter. At my previous airline as a representative, I was able to see shelves of 3-ring binders filled with negotiating notes taken during the negotiating process. It was explained to me by the attorney that these were kept specifically for future grievances to show intent at the negotiating table should the need arise.
So the question becomes who were the incompetent negotiators who didn't follow standard practice to take (and retain) detailed notes? Doesn't matter who the bargaining agent is or was in this case. It's the individuals assigned to do the job who should be questioned.
12-09-2011, 12:30 PM
#23
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
What's getting lost in all the typical name calling is the statement that ALPA had ONE person testify at the hearing. That ONE person had no notes and no proof for the arbitrator to decide the case on the side of ALPA. The company had numerous people, all with their negotiators notes to "prove" the company position.
Question: Is THIS the kind of "representation" we would all hope for from ALPA?
Carl
Question: Is THIS the kind of "representation" we would all hope for from ALPA?
Carl
I'm sure several documents were lost in the ALPA/USAPA transition.
12-09-2011, 12:37 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl,
While I agree with part of your statement, I'd say it would be blanket coverage to all of ALPA in this matter. At my previous airline as a representative, I was able to see shelves of 3-ring binders filled with negotiating notes taken during the negotiating process. It was explained to me by the attorney that these were kept specifically for future grievances to show intent at the negotiating table should the need arise.
While I agree with part of your statement, I'd say it would be blanket coverage to all of ALPA in this matter. At my previous airline as a representative, I was able to see shelves of 3-ring binders filled with negotiating notes taken during the negotiating process. It was explained to me by the attorney that these were kept specifically for future grievances to show intent at the negotiating table should the need arise.
Carl
12-09-2011, 12:39 PM
#25
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Position: 747-400 Captain
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Because snaback's were never part of the deal so they weren't in the notes because they never existed. The people that negotiated loa 93 told usapa that snapback's didn't exist, usapa didn't accept their explanation and promised their pilots a huge raise. Let's no forget that the east pilots are the only pilot group in history to take a bigger pay cut than asked for by their company during bk2.
Carl
12-09-2011, 12:39 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,038
Because snaback's were never part of the deal so they weren't in the notes because they never existed. The people that negotiated loa 93 told usapa that snapback's didn't exist, usapa didn't accept their explanation and promised their pilots a huge raise. Let's no forget that the east pilots are the only pilot group in history to take a bigger pay cut than asked for by their company during bk2.
12-09-2011, 12:42 PM
#27
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Carl
12-09-2011, 12:47 PM
#28
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I'm sure that's not the case. The notes exist. The only question is, did somebody do what ALPA did to their TWA records.
Carl
12-09-2011, 12:56 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,689
Not as big a drag as ALPA representation has been on our profession for the last decade. How could anyone be proud of a grievance hearing where ALPA sends one person without notes or much of a memory about the section in question?
I was hoping they'd prevail too. But I was assuming ALPA would come prepared. My bad.
Carl
I was hoping they'd prevail too. But I was assuming ALPA would come prepared. My bad.
Carl
This was much like the Delta grievance on vacation. When the ALPA negotiators went before the system board they essentially supported the company position as what they had negotiated. I want all the help ALPA can provide in such a situation but I also want absolute integrity from those doing ALPA work. It becomes especially important if you go before a arbitrator or mediator. Feed them BS and you wont like the result. There is recent first hand experience with this.
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