8out

Good Luck! I have considered doing the same.

Kill Bill

you are so incredibly far divorced from reality, i don't even know where to begin. so i won't.

good luck in your chosen career.

oh, and, by the way, you're a troll.

SkyHigh

Thanks Bill,

Sometimes divorcing ourselves from reality is the only way to find peace. Thank you for the best wishes. Two years ago my last airline shut down and since then I have been building houses until I find another flying job. One of the most common ways to kill an aviation career is to be successful in another field. My home building business is taking off, I am earning a lot more money now, am home every night, am always the Captain of what ever I do and have my destiny in my own hands. I do miss flying. I feel that to give up on ones dream is akin to suicide; however my wife and children need the income and stability. However, if Alaska Airlines ever calls I am there. (I don't think that you work there, so we are safe.) I flew for almost 20 years and was an FO for a lot of that time. I wasn't a Captain for long enough to delude myself into becoming a typical arrogant, self centered, egotistical airline Captain; though I dreamed of it. Your arrogant posts tell me that you have been lucky enough to have become that guy and I envy you. Good Luck to you Kill Bill and to all of your divorcing endeavors. I have enjoyed our debates.

SkyHigh


During my aviation career I was fond of saying.

"Out of my graduating class of aviators I was the only one still flying. The rest are all successful and happy."

OrionFE

Hey Mike....Check out Keller Williams Real Estate. They pay the best (70/30 split then 100%), have profit sharing and have the best training for "newbies" in the industry.

Good luck!

mike734

Thanks much for that. I will check them out.

Fools & Horses

Hello Mike734,

A little late to the party, but want to join in. From what
I've read in this thread, it seems that you feel much the
same way as I did in 2003. I was a senior capt. at a major
airline, and had had enough. Just remember, you have to do
what makes you happy. As some old FO told me once: "this
isn't a dress rehearsal". It sounds like you have a good plan
in place, and are well on the way to making it work.

If you haven't read this whole thread of late, go back and read
what WatchThis, Kill Bill and av8r4aa (maybe we flew together)
have posted. They seem to have a good grip on things. I am
very happy that I got out with what was left of the B-plan and
my sanity. Fortunately, thanks to some advanced planning and
a little luck, I made more money in 2004 than I would have had
I stayed and flown 75 hours a month (at the new drastically
reduced pay rates).

Best of luck, and hoping you get a couple of million dollar sales.

Fools & Horses

Sike

Wow, what a debate going on here. I am one of the younger guys and feel that I can see both sides of the issue. I have family members who have lost pensions in the industry, etc. and I currently work for a company that operates the E170 for a horrid rate of about $63/hr for a 3rd year captain. What has happened in this industry that once promised to be so lucrative down the road? Well, unfortunately for us, the reality of airlines raping business travelers on ticket prices for years has ended. Honestly, I think that portion of recent industry events is only fair. In addition, other things like fuel hedges and LCCs that have grown in popularity (and often provide much better customer service) have reshaped the business model altogether.

So, what needs to happen? I hate to say it, but a few of the major carriers need to disappear... and what else? someone needs to go shut down the flight schools that are making a criminal amount of money off of students who are searching for a dream that still exists, but in a much different form. So, until there are no longer 40000 people out there applying for pilot jobs, its going to be tough to gain any real ground for the next several years. If we all really want to be productive, we should stop b*tching and work on finding a solution to the oil price issue... HA!

Mike

Jared

Kill Bill seems a little bit gruff towards we newcomers who work for nothing. I'm curious to hear what his first part 121 job was and what it paid. I'm sure that someone as enlightened as him would never have worked for less than an industry-preserving salary, would he?

It is easy for old guys to look back and say that we sniveling FOs are silly, but what is your suggestion? Won't you tell me what you did in your own personal career way back then when FOs weren't snivelers? Enlighten me, for I am un-informed. I'd be glad to hear and answer to that question from each and every one of you who says that all we have to do is not work for peanuts. Until you do answer that question, you have no ground to stand on as far a I am concerned.

I'm thinking about tales I've heard from the early 1990s where FOs were making 14k per year minus 10k in training to fly a jetstream or other small turboprop... so the phenomenon isn't new, but I'd be glad to hear someone's account of a time when FOs weren't willing to make sacrifices to get experience.

I can think of two facts of life that apply here: First, whatever seems like a new problem probably isn't. Second, it's just as easy for a senior legacy captain to say "FOs should not work for so little" as it is for a new fo to say "one of the legacy carriers should go out of business." After all, it isn't my job that is affected!

Finally, my vote for biggest factor in industry problems is that cost is unrelated to price. People have an unrealistic perception of what air travel costs, and are thus not willing to pay higher fares. Compounding this problem is that it is not an easy task for airline management to relate price to cost either.

I think I see the same problem in the automotive industry right now. People don't care how much it costs to make a car, they are just glad to pay an employee discount price and no more. Really, how can a company ever raise its prices above cost once it has lowered them below it? I don't have a solution, but then if I did, maybe I would make more than my meager peanut wages.

Sky_Bound

It's your personal decision to leave the industry and I respect that.

I honestly believe you're making the right choice for "you".

Research has shown that working "professionals" burn out @ about a 10 year mark.

As someone looking start a career as a pilot( @ 39) coming from the private sector and self employment I can honestly suggest that the biggest difference with all the occupations out there is control of one's money.

I had lean years to get started and I had years that were flourishing.
After I sold to a structured buyout I found out how quickly things can get bad when someone else holds your purse strings.

We got screwed and settled for pennies on the dollar and have some "toilet paper" stock for "when" they go public.

Just today as I was talking with my father about "airline job security" he brought up his 20+ years with General Motors - currently Delphi.

The starting wages there have been cut 50% in the last ten years and he said his 401k just now returned to it's 1998 value.

Again the money was in control of a Board and stockholders.

I remember having numerous meetings with Dupont Masters Degree middle managements looking to buy my franchises when their bubble burst.

It's happened all over and not just to pilots and it's not just about supply and demand of personnel.

There's a world wide nursing shortage yet my wife struggles to find a starting pay much better than that of a first year regional FO in many metro areas.

Many FO's in their second year are making the income that has taken her 8 years of experience to obtain.

In my honest opinion anyone who thinks $68/hr and up is a horrid pay is jaded.

Just a question,
When pay freezes and new hires pay rates were dropped due to negotiations who did the "currently employed" think would be the people filling those spots ?

Wouldn't it suffice to say that just as one "won't work" for 130k a year that those same Potential FO's wouldn't/shouldn't have to work for 30k a year?

Surely the old salts had to realize that the "Marry me, fly for free" days couldn't last forever.

You're right about the public not knowing the "cost" of air travel.

But if it wasn't for cheap tickets many of those wage earners below $30/hr would rarely fly making for 6 of one half a dozen the other with airline income.

I'm jaded to how much people fly because I've been fortunate in life and I've lived/live in tourist areas.

Currently in Las Vegas it's easy to believe that "everyone" can afford to fly because you can look up in the sky at night and see the line of lights of on approach liners.

But I'm often hit with reality when I talk with people and they've been saving for two years to make the trip or when I travel out of Vegas and meet people who have only flown "for their honeymoon".

Well anyways, best of luck.
Stay away from partners
Keep tabs on your money yourself
Get cash on the barrel head for sell outs

and number one.
Don't be a slave to the dollar. Enjoy what you do. Our time is short enough.

WatchThis!

It depends on what you produce. Call me jaded but I produce way more than $68/hr for the bottom line of the company I work for. Why would I sell myself short? Don't make the mistake of focusing on a static dollar ammount, hourly pilot pay should be linked to productivity.

I'd be interested to hear where you think pilot pay should be (if not over $68/hr).