Leaving the industry
07-18-2005, 09:50 PM
#21
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Pilot Pay
Originally Posted by flaps 9
Did you dream of flying, or making money? Even in the Pan Am days there were only a FEW who were making truck loads of money flying airplanes, just like today. If you want to chase the all mighty dollar, you might find yourself feeling as disapointed selling real estate as you do flying. I really cant say I feel sorry for you. You reached a point in aviation that many will never see. Joy in life is much more than just having all the toys. Wise man once told me, watch what you wish for, it just might come true. 
08-08-2005, 04:21 PM
#22
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,602
Point of view
Really interesting reading the thread of this discussion and also disturbing. Two prospectives that (seem) to clearly show why this profession is in a downward spiral and will continue until the "glamor" of airline flying falls below the "reality" of pay and benefits.
First, let me say I'm on the inside and understand the downside of scheduled flying that so so many want-a-bee's and outsiders either can't comprehend of just simply ignore. But first the money.
Anyone earning 47k as one guy near SEA quoted must be looking at the unskilled labor rates. Maybe in Mississippi and parts of the mid-west could you live on under 50k. On the coast(s) and any larger city, you'd better be in your early years of your career (read; not married or if so both working without kids) and young (understood) because you can't afford health care and won't be making any sizable contribution to your retirement. As far as the guy who thinks an average home sells for 140k, well, not where I live unless its very, very small, out of the way and a fixer uper.
Having said that, I agree 150k is a liveable wage almost anywhere. The thing is educated people who are smart enough to meet the requirements to fly for USAF, USN, USMC and even thoses of us who didn't but got the four year degree make similar money or more, ofter much more and live in homes they payed 750k or more and have all the other nice trappings that airline pilots (used) look forward to after reaching the capt seat.
And these people are generally home every major hoilday and usually can count on being home weekends too. Too many of my friends (and sadly family) think I work less than half the month with vacaton thats lasts for months. Just because I can make (some) of my kids school events and cut my lawn mid week they think I never work! It falls of deaf ears that the time the don't see me, (like when they are asleep) I'm landing at some far off palace I'v been to before, don't need to see again (been there, got the teeshirt) and have been on duty longer and awake longer than most people consider normal. And because people with "normal" jobs can commit to time off on say, every Thusday night or Saturday morning they can be bigger contributers to their communites (Board of Ed., little league coach, mayor
).
That said it is still a great job, I wouldn't give it up, unless it gets pushed down to a level that some outside the industy think we should be payed at.
If 150k to capt a MD-80 after 25 years in the industy is too much (I get the feeling based on the thred of some of these posts) is 100k right?? Looking at what some non sch's and low cost airlines are paying (and not providing in benefits) If you think 100k is still more than this job deserves (remember we ony work half the month
) than maybe 50k is a fair pay for a (part time) job that many media types think is just a fun time piching FA's butts
In any case I miss all that fun, flying over night stuff for the, "absolutely, postively, gotta have it tomorrow" croud. Atleast I'm not looking at a pay cut or the help wanted ads.
First, let me say I'm on the inside and understand the downside of scheduled flying that so so many want-a-bee's and outsiders either can't comprehend of just simply ignore. But first the money.
Anyone earning 47k as one guy near SEA quoted must be looking at the unskilled labor rates. Maybe in Mississippi and parts of the mid-west could you live on under 50k. On the coast(s) and any larger city, you'd better be in your early years of your career (read; not married or if so both working without kids) and young (understood) because you can't afford health care and won't be making any sizable contribution to your retirement. As far as the guy who thinks an average home sells for 140k, well, not where I live unless its very, very small, out of the way and a fixer uper.
Having said that, I agree 150k is a liveable wage almost anywhere. The thing is educated people who are smart enough to meet the requirements to fly for USAF, USN, USMC and even thoses of us who didn't but got the four year degree make similar money or more, ofter much more and live in homes they payed 750k or more and have all the other nice trappings that airline pilots (used) look forward to after reaching the capt seat.
And these people are generally home every major hoilday and usually can count on being home weekends too. Too many of my friends (and sadly family) think I work less than half the month with vacaton thats lasts for months. Just because I can make (some) of my kids school events and cut my lawn mid week they think I never work! It falls of deaf ears that the time the don't see me, (like when they are asleep) I'm landing at some far off palace I'v been to before, don't need to see again (been there, got the teeshirt) and have been on duty longer and awake longer than most people consider normal. And because people with "normal" jobs can commit to time off on say, every Thusday night or Saturday morning they can be bigger contributers to their communites (Board of Ed., little league coach, mayor
).That said it is still a great job, I wouldn't give it up, unless it gets pushed down to a level that some outside the industy think we should be payed at.
If 150k to capt a MD-80 after 25 years in the industy is too much (I get the feeling based on the thred of some of these posts) is 100k right?? Looking at what some non sch's and low cost airlines are paying (and not providing in benefits) If you think 100k is still more than this job deserves (remember we ony work half the month
) than maybe 50k is a fair pay for a (part time) job that many media types think is just a fun time piching FA's butts In any case I miss all that fun, flying over night stuff for the, "absolutely, postively, gotta have it tomorrow" croud. Atleast I'm not looking at a pay cut or the help wanted ads.
08-08-2005, 06:25 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
you low-time and/or under-employed newbies commenting on this captain's decision to leave the cockpit crack me up! i have no idea who he flies for, not does it matter. he is probably sick of watching his profession continually beat into the ground with the willing help of guys like you with your snivelling, "how can you make over $100k a year and complain about it??? i'd be HAPPY to work for $75k!" you guys will self-fulfill your desires, believe me.
i'm 51, 737 CA on reserve. we just took a pay cut advertised as 8.9% but which is more likely over 20% when the full effect of the work rule changes is factored in. in addition, i lost about $700k in retirement with 9 years to make it up. the company will be back to steal the rest when they decide it's easier to take it from the employees than it is to raise fares to fight you guys who'l work for $50k, trust me. if i'm lucky, i'll get PBGC minimum plus some social security when i retire.
so all you little snivellers, here's some advice: keep your mouth shut when you haven't a clue what you're talking about. it's YOU who have, in large measure, helped run this profession into the ground.
i'm 51, 737 CA on reserve. we just took a pay cut advertised as 8.9% but which is more likely over 20% when the full effect of the work rule changes is factored in. in addition, i lost about $700k in retirement with 9 years to make it up. the company will be back to steal the rest when they decide it's easier to take it from the employees than it is to raise fares to fight you guys who'l work for $50k, trust me. if i'm lucky, i'll get PBGC minimum plus some social security when i retire.
so all you little snivellers, here's some advice: keep your mouth shut when you haven't a clue what you're talking about. it's YOU who have, in large measure, helped run this profession into the ground.
08-08-2005, 08:49 PM
#24
New boss = Old boss
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by jetjock1027
Wouldn't it make more sense to try a part-time job that could pay you 25-30K to supplement the 145,000 your already making?
Buy a liquor store or open a 7-11. Personally, I understand where your coming from. But lets look at this sensibly....15 days a month still leaves plenty of days to do something else. Open a landscape company. Do you think some migrant worker making $10./hour would trade with you?
Good Luck in your diffecult decission.
Buy a liquor store or open a 7-11. Personally, I understand where your coming from. But lets look at this sensibly....15 days a month still leaves plenty of days to do something else. Open a landscape company. Do you think some migrant worker making $10./hour would trade with you?
Good Luck in your diffecult decission.
I am quoting jetjock because he said some things and I would like to respond.
I don't want to spend the other 15 days a month working in a liquor store of a 7-11 (Thank you, come again). If I am going to work every waking moment for the next few years I want the rewards to be commensurate with the sacrifice. Also, yeah, I think a migrant worker would like to trade places with me but so would most of the population. That's not really a good argument is it? See how they feel after 20 years of decline. (interestingly, I worked as a contract captain for 3 European airlines over my career and was an illegal alien for 2 of them.) LOL
08-08-2005, 08:55 PM
#25
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Point
It isn't that easy to replace 140K. I don't care where you live or what you do. The median income in most metropolitan areas for a family of four is still between 55 and 65K, and that is with two incomes. Perhaps some of you crusty old Captains have been out of the main stream work force for too long. Most professionals are working 55 to 65 hours a week plus a two hour commute everyday. In addition, unlike most other professions, pilots do not have any job skills that are useable outside of the cockpit. I know this from personal experience. When my last employer went belly up many of my ex-coworkers ended up driving cabs or in manual labor jobs. The guy who washes the laundry at my parent’s retirement community flew for TWA. It is hard enough to find an edge in this world without switching professions entirely at middle age. The odds of similar success are slim and the transition is very painful. Most of these “whiners” probably live on less than what you spend on your car every year. Therefore from our low perspective it can be difficult to understand why someone who earns more than 6 regional FO’s has a problem.
08-08-2005, 09:09 PM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Kill Bill
you low-time and/or under-employed newbies commenting on this captain's decision to leave the cockpit crack me up! i have no idea who he flies for, not does it matter. he is probably sick of watching his profession continually beat into the ground with the willing help of guys like you with your snivelling, "how can you make over $100k a year and complain about it??? i'd be HAPPY to work for $75k!" you guys will self-fulfill your desires, believe me.
i'm 51, 737 CA on reserve. we just took a pay cut advertised as 8.9% but which is more likely over 20% when the full effect of the work rule changes is factored in. in addition, i lost about $700k in retirement with 9 years to make it up. the company will be back to steal the rest when they decide it's easier to take it from the employees than it is to raise fares to fight you guys who'l work for $50k, trust me. if i'm lucky, i'll get PBGC minimum plus some social security when i retire.
so all you little snivellers, here's some advice: keep your mouth shut when you haven't a clue what you're talking about. it's YOU who have, in large measure, helped run this profession into the ground.
i'm 51, 737 CA on reserve. we just took a pay cut advertised as 8.9% but which is more likely over 20% when the full effect of the work rule changes is factored in. in addition, i lost about $700k in retirement with 9 years to make it up. the company will be back to steal the rest when they decide it's easier to take it from the employees than it is to raise fares to fight you guys who'l work for $50k, trust me. if i'm lucky, i'll get PBGC minimum plus some social security when i retire.
so all you little snivellers, here's some advice: keep your mouth shut when you haven't a clue what you're talking about. it's YOU who have, in large measure, helped run this profession into the ground.
You old money hungry crusties that padded your Capt pay scales and left the "beginning" FO pay scales unbelievabley low are who ran this industry into the ground, along with stupid management. I realize most of what has happened is out of your "our" hands, but most if not all of these contracts were negotiated before 9/11 and the pay scales still sucked for FOs, I wonder who was responsible for that?
08-08-2005, 10:46 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Lazy-boy Captain
Posts: 242
Its a race allright
Its a race to the Bottom......Thats for sure.
It is all boiling down to who will work for the lowest salary.
Back when things were looking better, every airline contract
had a "keep up with the Jones's" compared to all the other
Airline contracts
Today it is really no different.......
except one word
Keep DOWN with the Jones's
as in who will work for the lowest price.
This industry sucks and getting worse by the minute.
Who is at fault?
Not really sure.
Might be a little of Greedy Captains
Might be a little of Stupid management
Might be a little of Low cost Carriers
Might be a little of High Fuel prices
Might be a little of The glut of RJ's
Might be a little of Low fare prices
Might be a little of 9/11
Might be a little of bad labor union decisions
Might be a little of too much capacity
I don't know probably all the above plus 100 more.
All I can say is its bad and getting worse.
Unless your carrier is hiring and expanding
then its good (for now)
It is all boiling down to who will work for the lowest salary.
Back when things were looking better, every airline contract
had a "keep up with the Jones's" compared to all the other
Airline contracts
Today it is really no different.......
except one word
Keep DOWN with the Jones's
as in who will work for the lowest price.
This industry sucks and getting worse by the minute.
Who is at fault?
Not really sure.
Might be a little of Greedy Captains
Might be a little of Stupid management
Might be a little of Low cost Carriers
Might be a little of High Fuel prices
Might be a little of The glut of RJ's
Might be a little of Low fare prices
Might be a little of 9/11
Might be a little of bad labor union decisions
Might be a little of too much capacity
I don't know probably all the above plus 100 more.
All I can say is its bad and getting worse.
Unless your carrier is hiring and expanding
then its good (for now)
08-08-2005, 10:51 PM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by av8r4aa
Its a race to the Bottom......Thats for sure.
It is all boiling down to who will work for the lowest salary.
Back when things were looking better, every airline contract
had a "keep up with the Jones's" compared to all the other
Airline contracts
Today it is really no different.......
except one word
Keep DOWN with the Jones's
as in who will work for the lowest price.
This industry sucks and getting worse by the minute.
Who is at fault?
Not really sure.
Might be a little of Greedy Captains
Might be a little of Stupid management
Might be a little of Low cost Carriers
Might be a little of High Fuel prices
Might be a little of The glut of RJ's
Might be a little of Low fare prices
Might be a little of 9/11
Might be a little of bad labor union decisions
Might be a little of too much capacity
I don't know probably all the above plus 100 more.
All I can say is its bad and getting worse.
Unless your carrier is hiring and expanding
then its good (for now)
It is all boiling down to who will work for the lowest salary.
Back when things were looking better, every airline contract
had a "keep up with the Jones's" compared to all the other
Airline contracts
Today it is really no different.......
except one word
Keep DOWN with the Jones's
as in who will work for the lowest price.
This industry sucks and getting worse by the minute.
Who is at fault?
Not really sure.
Might be a little of Greedy Captains
Might be a little of Stupid management
Might be a little of Low cost Carriers
Might be a little of High Fuel prices
Might be a little of The glut of RJ's
Might be a little of Low fare prices
Might be a little of 9/11
Might be a little of bad labor union decisions
Might be a little of too much capacity
I don't know probably all the above plus 100 more.
All I can say is its bad and getting worse.
Unless your carrier is hiring and expanding
then its good (for now)
08-09-2005, 06:23 AM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by avbug
You old money hungry crusties that padded your Capt pay scales and left the "beginning" FO pay scales unbelievabley low are who ran this industry into the ground, along with stupid management. I realize most of what has happened is out of your "our" hands, but most if not all of these contracts were negotiated before 9/11 and the pay scales still sucked for FOs, I wonder who was responsible for that?
last i checked, most 2nd year fo's make about 50k. i know, it's awful, just awful what us old farts have done to you. but you're right; you new guys should make the 150k to start right out of embry riddle and us old guys should be on a sliding scale down so we can hurry up and get out of your way.
moron.
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