Brand new 737-800 crash - Gol
10-02-2006, 10:09 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Brand new 737-800 crash - Gol
On Saturday, in sunny weather at 37,000 ft a 737-800 that was delivered to Gol on September 12 apparently grazed a brand new Embraer Legacy business jet and went down killing all 155 people on board in the middle of the Amazon jungle.
I am not a pilot, but wonder how this could happen. All the news reports say that they should have had collision warning systems on at the time. Any thoughts?
The business jet, which had a NY Times travel reporter onboard, emergency landed at an air force base. The pilots/passengers on the business jet say they didn't ever see the 737, before or after the collision, but two passengers thought they saw a shadow.
Links below:
http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy2_fab.jpg - Collision damage
http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy1_fab.jpg - Normal
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/02/wo...s/02crash.html - NY Times article
I am not a pilot, but wonder how this could happen. All the news reports say that they should have had collision warning systems on at the time. Any thoughts?
The business jet, which had a NY Times travel reporter onboard, emergency landed at an air force base. The pilots/passengers on the business jet say they didn't ever see the 737, before or after the collision, but two passengers thought they saw a shadow.
Links below:
http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy2_fab.jpg - Collision damage
http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy1_fab.jpg - Normal
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/02/wo...s/02crash.html - NY Times article
10-02-2006, 10:30 AM
#2
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Joined APC: May 2006
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Yes they both would have had TCAS. Maybe the pilots just dissmissed it. Or maybe they did not do what it said Climb or desend. 3 years ago a DHL 757 slammed into a Tupolev 154 over Germany. The pilots did not listen to the warnings and this is what happened...
10-02-2006, 10:37 AM
#3
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Position: MD 11F F/O
Posts: 21
I have flown on that very same airway many times. It is a region known among pilots for poor radio comunications coverage, sometimes you would fly for a considerable time unable to talk or hear anything from ATC but radar coverage has been greatly improved on the area over the past few years.
Anyway, how would the two brand new aircrfat´s TCAS not work properly or four well trained professional pilots not react to the warings is still a big mistery.
Anyway, how would the two brand new aircrfat´s TCAS not work properly or four well trained professional pilots not react to the warings is still a big mistery.
10-02-2006, 10:38 AM
#4
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There is a lot more info on the Brazil accident over on www.pprune.org
10-02-2006, 10:48 AM
#5
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Position: MD 11F F/O
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Josh,
The pilots on the the accident you have mentioned did respond to their TCAS alerts, however the controler gave (I think it was to the russian crew) instructions contrary to their TCAS alerts. So the pilots listened and acted as expected but one of them got confused by ATC instrucions at the same time.
After this sad accident it has been stressed out on TCAS training that a pilot must always follow the TCAS alerts in spite of ATC instructions.
I Know a lot o GOL Airlines pilots, they are very professional and well trained so it just make any theories nothing more than just "theories"
The pilots on the the accident you have mentioned did respond to their TCAS alerts, however the controler gave (I think it was to the russian crew) instructions contrary to their TCAS alerts. So the pilots listened and acted as expected but one of them got confused by ATC instrucions at the same time.
After this sad accident it has been stressed out on TCAS training that a pilot must always follow the TCAS alerts in spite of ATC instructions.
I Know a lot o GOL Airlines pilots, they are very professional and well trained so it just make any theories nothing more than just "theories"
10-02-2006, 11:05 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B737 FO
Posts: 138
Swiss ATC controllers have been charged with Manslaughter
In reference to the DHL/Russian Crash the Swiss ATC controllers have been charged with Manslaughter
Swiss Air Controllers Charged in Russian Plane Crash Probe
Created: 08.08.2006 10:31 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 11:29 MSK
"A Swiss court has indicted eight employees of the Swiss air traffic control authority, Skyguide, for their involvement in the 2002 Ueberlingen plane crash, Swissinfo reported Monday. The Skyguide staff are charged with negligent manslaughter for their role in the air crash in which 71 people died when two jets collided over Swiss-controlled airspace in southern Germany.
In the charges read before Buelach district court in canton Zurich, the public prosecutor called on Monday for suspended sentences of between six and 15 months in jail.
All of the accused — three managers, three employees and two maintenance staff — deny any responsibility for the collision between the Russian airliner, which was carrying mostly children, and a DHL cargo aircraft. They have also been charged with negligent disruption of public transport.
The defendants were accused of organizational shortcomings that led to a single air traffic controller being left in charge of the area where the crash occurred on July 1, 2002, and with providing insufficient information to him about technical work in progress that decisively affected the communications and radar systems. Skyguide director, Alain Rossier, has not been charged.
“In the opinion of the district attorney, the failures to carry out their duties led to the collision and crash of the two aircraft,” the statement said.
The charges were brought after an extensive investigation in cooperation with the district attorney of Constance, Germany, Zurich cantonal police and the Swiss Office for Aircraft Accident Investigations, the statement said. They are based on the conclusions made by German investigators, who discovered similar errors and claimed the accident was due largely to negligence on the part of Skyguide.
In their May 2004 report, German investigators stated that Skyguide’s main control tower radar had been switched off and the main telephone line was down. However, according to the public prosecutor, the trial is unlikely to take place this year.
Criminal proceedings have also been opened against the same eight Skyguide employees in Constance, which are to be integrated into the Swiss case."
Swiss Air Controllers Charged in Russian Plane Crash Probe
Created: 08.08.2006 10:31 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 11:29 MSK
"A Swiss court has indicted eight employees of the Swiss air traffic control authority, Skyguide, for their involvement in the 2002 Ueberlingen plane crash, Swissinfo reported Monday. The Skyguide staff are charged with negligent manslaughter for their role in the air crash in which 71 people died when two jets collided over Swiss-controlled airspace in southern Germany.
In the charges read before Buelach district court in canton Zurich, the public prosecutor called on Monday for suspended sentences of between six and 15 months in jail.
All of the accused — three managers, three employees and two maintenance staff — deny any responsibility for the collision between the Russian airliner, which was carrying mostly children, and a DHL cargo aircraft. They have also been charged with negligent disruption of public transport.
The defendants were accused of organizational shortcomings that led to a single air traffic controller being left in charge of the area where the crash occurred on July 1, 2002, and with providing insufficient information to him about technical work in progress that decisively affected the communications and radar systems. Skyguide director, Alain Rossier, has not been charged.
“In the opinion of the district attorney, the failures to carry out their duties led to the collision and crash of the two aircraft,” the statement said.
The charges were brought after an extensive investigation in cooperation with the district attorney of Constance, Germany, Zurich cantonal police and the Swiss Office for Aircraft Accident Investigations, the statement said. They are based on the conclusions made by German investigators, who discovered similar errors and claimed the accident was due largely to negligence on the part of Skyguide.
In their May 2004 report, German investigators stated that Skyguide’s main control tower radar had been switched off and the main telephone line was down. However, according to the public prosecutor, the trial is unlikely to take place this year.
Criminal proceedings have also been opened against the same eight Skyguide employees in Constance, which are to be integrated into the Swiss case."
10-02-2006, 12:24 PM
#7
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student
Posts: 252
Josh,
The pilots on the the accident you have mentioned did respond to their TCAS alerts, however the controler gave (I think it was to the russian crew) instructions contrary to their TCAS alerts. So the pilots listened and acted as expected but one of them got confused by ATC instrucions at the same time.
After this sad accident it has been stressed out on TCAS training that a pilot must always follow the TCAS alerts in spite of ATC instructions.
I Know a lot o GOL Airlines pilots, they are very professional and well trained so it just make any theories nothing more than just "theories"
The pilots on the the accident you have mentioned did respond to their TCAS alerts, however the controler gave (I think it was to the russian crew) instructions contrary to their TCAS alerts. So the pilots listened and acted as expected but one of them got confused by ATC instrucions at the same time.
After this sad accident it has been stressed out on TCAS training that a pilot must always follow the TCAS alerts in spite of ATC instructions.
I Know a lot o GOL Airlines pilots, they are very professional and well trained so it just make any theories nothing more than just "theories"
10-02-2006, 02:19 PM
#8
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757
Posts: 6
Inaccurate
Josh, you have the facts backwards...
