Liv2soar

Unions are created mainly to protect from bad management. When a union is created, it rarely helps the success of the company. Rather it takes managements "eye off the ball."

When a union is in place, the company has to spend time, money and resources to deal with union issues, when they could just spend that energy focusing on growing the airline and keeping it profitable.

I would rather upper management focus on business than focus on ALPA's shenanigans.

polly

It seems that many people at JB voted down ALPA because they were hosed by ALPA. I have spoken to many that feel this way. I work at JB and I am a furloughed American. I am much happier at JB, AMR use to pull some wild stunts and get away with it and APA signed it off. This whole industry has become a dog eat dog world its every person for themselves. Its a shame, but its not only in the airline industry, banks even my brother a top engineer at motorola is always threatened. As for now JB has treated me by far much better than AMR and Ive been at JB for 4 years. I saw the fighting at AMR and its a pressure cooker, I kind of see some guys here getting together and throwing rocks and some dont even know why. Lets see where mgmt takes it from here some things need to be fixed but overall I give it a 9 out of ten here. At American I gave it a 4. I had a Delta jumpseater, his comment was I ********* hate ALPA. My uncle 32 years at Delta knows Lee and said we made a very wise choice, and he was a big ALPA guy.
I dont wanna see anyone get hosed over but ALPA is not what it used to be
Good luck to all of you and take care of yourselves

tsquare

True, to a point. If you are strictly talking about a new union, it might cause a little distraction to management, but nothing serious. Older, more established unions can actually help management... especially if there is something in it for the membership. (witness the obvious example, DAL/NWA) But I still maintain that it is bad management that will have far more to do with a company's success/failure than will a union.

johnso29

Unions don't just protect against bad management. It's sad how short sighted many are. ALPA provides programs to help pilots with problems ranging from family crisis to marriage problems to alcohol/drug abuse. That's just a few. They do not take managements 'eye off the ball'. Management will always work for one group and one group only, the shareholders, of which they are included in. Therefore they will always do what they can to increase the airline profitability, at anyone's expense but their own. Pilots are and always will be expendable to management. We are not assets, & anybody who believes otherwise is fooling themselves. It's not our job to make money. That's managements job. They will never let it come at THEIR expense. Why should we?

DAL 88 Driver

This is wrong. Employees (which includes pilots in an airline) are one of the greatest assets to any business. This is basic business 101 stuff. It is also an important criteria by which you can judge the quality of a management team. In our industry, which airline's management is best known for this philosophy? Which airline is the most successful? It's not a coincidence that the answer to both of those questions is the same.

johnso29

I'm not disagreeing with you. But just take a look at our industry since de-regulation, & tell me this isn't how the average airline management team works. Management views us as expendable. Period.

Old UCAL CA

I've got to add a bit to this.

You are close to being correct, but not quite. Management does not view pilots as being expendable. They view us as being easily replaceable primarily for three reasons...one, there is a relatively large supply of pilots in the market, two, there are no barriers to pilot licensing except money, and three, although one thinks experience is a prerequisite, the overall experience requirements have dropped dramatically over the last 30 years as the industry expanded and became more competitive. Correspondingly, technology has also vastly improved which has the effect of offsetting previous experience requirements. Accident/incident metrics are not rising with the clear drop in experience.

When one adds that we are licensed and annually tested to minimum standards, we are quite easily replaceable without nary a tear, burp, or a heart skipping a beat.

tsquare

This is a bit myopic though. While true in many ways, they were fortunate to have had great luck with fuel hedging when everybody else was tanking. Now not so much. They are undergoing a merger that will stagnate growth for awhile while the dust is settling. The other airlines are onto their game, and they aren't the cheapest in many markets.. not by a long shot. So.... their belts are about to be tightened. When this happens, those buddy buddy relationships are reduced to a bottom line effect. How will it turn out? Who knows, but you can bet that those that are paid by the company on an hourly basis are going to be more scrutinized and are going to move closer and closer to the liabilities side of the ledger.. Or maybe I am all wet, and socialism really CAN work.

DAL 88 Driver

IMO, socialism can never work. What I am stating has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. It's about good, solid, proven over time, conservative business management. The free market will sort it out. Poorly managed businesses are culled out by the free market. Business that are run with the view that employees are a liability, almost always provide poor customer service and an inferior product. I just don't want to see Delta be a casualty of poor management any more than it already has been. As much as I want us to kick SWA's butt... as someone who has either been involved or closely observed business practices almost my entire life... I know that SWA's philosophy of taking care of their employees is one of the most important factors in their success. Yeah, they got lucky with the fuel hedging. And there may come a time when economics will dictate that they all have to make some "shared sacrifices." But I can just about guarantee you their pilots won't be taking a 42% pay cut, losing a significant portion of their retirement, and have thousands of their jobs outsourced to the lowest bidder. That's just not going to happen with a management team that understands the value of employees as an asset and does not see them as an enemy to be crushed.

DAL 88 Driver

Got it. You are correct, re: most airline management. However, see my reply above to tsquare for a more thorough response.