tsquare

While all of the above is correct, what is it again that ALPA (uniquely) does to make this situation better?

iahflyr

Having flown at both non-union and union carriers, I have had a much better experience at non-union operations.

Old UCAL CA

With all due respect to ALPA...it is a good organization in a number of areas...in a word, nothing.

While it is wildly popular to blame ALPA, SWAPA, APA etc., for the ailments of pilot labor in this industry, organized labor/collective bargaining gets trumped by labor market forces in a deregulated environment.

It doesn't matter which organization is standing on the stump, beating their chest and pontificating...the market always wins with the government out of the picture. Labor gets fat only when good and bad decisions are funded by Uncle Sam, pilot labor demand exceeds supply, the industry is wildly profitable, or a combination.

Being the humans that we are, it is much easier to point fingers as to the source of our troubles, although introspection will show...ahem...continuing over-supply of new pilot labor at reduced comp entering this industry...ahem, ahem...

The market isn't quite in equilibrium just yet. In any a case, one can't blame organized labor by any name. The forces are much bigger than that.

Carl Spackler

You're wrong on this. The government is NOT out of the picture. We would have much better prospects if government WAS out of the picture. Instead, we have the NMB acting like judge and jury during labor negotiations. And we have bankruptcy courts forcing contract slashes that could never be gotten outside of this government action.

Our biggest problem is an activist government which has created this huge imbalance of power tilted toward management.

Carl

tsquare

So then I would ask, again, what is the purpose of the national union? Perhaps they have run their course as a "threat" of what organized labor can do i.e. shut down the transportation system, because as Carl points out the gubbamint won't get out of our knickers. ALPA national is a social club of sorts, providing some services that can be obtained because of volume discount. (I am sometimes at a loss of what these are, but let's run with that). OR.. they are a lobbying group. I think the former is currently more likely, and I think they should embrace that concept and should farm themselves out to ALL pilot unions. THAT would probably be more beneficial to all parties concerned. DAL pilots could have a union that worries about DAL pilots, and an association with ALPA for lobbying efforts and insurance and whatever else it is that they say they do for us. Pay on a user fee basis.. I dunno. I just think the current association is becoming more and more ineffective, and disjointed from those they supposedly represent. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I think I won't.

tsquare

Without an activist labor movement, this is highly unlikely to change either. Moak? jail? really?

Old UCAL CA

I agree with that. I was writing in terms of price supports that went away with the advent of the ADA of 1978.

I'm not so sure I would call it activist. However, regulations and procedure are clearly tilted against labor to prevent a disruption. I agree with that.

It seems quite likely to remain that way in the foreseeable future (my lifetime anyway) with the three largest US domestic carriers (SWA, UAL, DAL) near 21 to 22% domestic market share each. The domestic disruption potential is too great.

Old UCAL CA

You have many good points as does Carl.

In this competitive environment, ALPA is an excellent organization but it can't be all things to all people...especially in the scope arena. When one factors in the regulatory/procedural "tilt" as Carl points out and a number of other mentioned factors, the collective bargaining aspect takes on much less significance than it did during the regulated environment.

Nonetheless, organized labor continually gets the pointed "finger" as to the source of pilot troubles in this business. It is unfair, but we being pilots, it is what it is.

tsquare

That is the source of so much angst... and I have not a clue as to how they rectify it, if they even care to... I actually don't think they care about that angst because they know that DAL is going nowhere.. UCAL will go nowhere etc.... and the broken model will keep on keeping on.

You are correct, and it is a shame that the finger is and will always be pointed at us. What we really need is leadership that doesn't care what John Q (or more importantly the gubbamint) thinks or says, and actually does what's best for it's constituency. I'm not holding my breath.