DAL early retirement 2009/2011
05-06-2011, 07:56 AM
#291
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Maybe we could get him to debate PG on his idea that Delta is not comparable to SWA and consequently we as pilots should not expect to ever be rewarded with an equivilent working agreement.
05-06-2011, 08:13 AM
#292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
Is it possible the SWA pilots have been making a lot more than we all thought all these years? That AirTran Welcome document was a real eye opener. They are averaging 105 "trips for pay" per month. Their current Captain hourly rate of $210 is quite a bit less than our MD-88 Captain C2K rate of $237. But is it possible they were actually making more money than we were even back then? If they were averaging 105 TFP back in 2004 and their rate was anything close to $210, then they very well may have been averaging quite a bit MORE than our MD-88 Captains were averaging back then. Our MD-88 Captain rate in 2004 was $237. But I'm guessing the average pay was probably based on about 75 hours. Do the math. Maybe the SWA pilots have been laughing all the way to the bank for a lot longer than any of us realized.
And, yes, I do believe they are a "peer." Not in every sense. But they are soon to be our biggest domestic competitor in our biggest hub, ATL. And I see nothing wrong with advocating that our pilots doing comparable flying be paid AT LEAST as much as they are... and then apply that percentage increase to all our other fleets. As far as I'm concerned, that is a bare minimum for me and anything less than that will be an automatic NO vote. Same goes with scope. Any relaxation on scope is an automatic and resounding NO.
And, yes, I do believe they are a "peer." Not in every sense. But they are soon to be our biggest domestic competitor in our biggest hub, ATL. And I see nothing wrong with advocating that our pilots doing comparable flying be paid AT LEAST as much as they are... and then apply that percentage increase to all our other fleets. As far as I'm concerned, that is a bare minimum for me and anything less than that will be an automatic NO vote. Same goes with scope. Any relaxation on scope is an automatic and resounding NO.
Heyas DAL,
Believe it or not, SWA has a LOT of soft time built into their system, which is why they are always in a mad rush, and while they'll defend it to their last breath.
The way their "trip" system works is that it doesn't pay "block or better" until you get to a certain point over shceduled block time, thus eliminating the urge to poke along and encouraging you to get to where you are going. After all, if you aren't going to make extra, you might as well be early, right?
By getting everywhere early, the SWA guys still get their block, and reduce their FAR flight time so they can work their version of the open board, and make even more cash.
Nu
05-06-2011, 08:59 AM
#293
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Heyas DAL,
Believe it or not, SWA has a LOT of soft time built into their system, which is why they are always in a mad rush, and while they'll defend it to their last breath.
The way their "trip" system works is that it doesn't pay "block or better" until you get to a certain point over shceduled block time, thus eliminating the urge to poke along and encouraging you to get to where you are going. After all, if you aren't going to make extra, you might as well be early, right?
By getting everywhere early, the SWA guys still get their block, and reduce their FAR flight time so they can work their version of the open board, and make even more cash.
Nu
Believe it or not, SWA has a LOT of soft time built into their system, which is why they are always in a mad rush, and while they'll defend it to their last breath.
The way their "trip" system works is that it doesn't pay "block or better" until you get to a certain point over shceduled block time, thus eliminating the urge to poke along and encouraging you to get to where you are going. After all, if you aren't going to make extra, you might as well be early, right?
By getting everywhere early, the SWA guys still get their block, and reduce their FAR flight time so they can work their version of the open board, and make even more cash.
Nu
However, that makes it sound like they (SWA guys) are making more because they're working more. But yet the AirTran Welcome document states that the average SWA pilot makes $230K (Captains) and $140K (F/O's), averaging 105 TFP (trips for pay) per month and 18 days off. Hey, I don't mind working hard while I'm at work. Getting $230K annually while averaging 12 days per month to fly a domestic narrowbody sounds like an infinitely better deal (about $100K more per year than I'm currently getting as a DC-9 Captain, and more days off to boot!) than what we currently have at Delta, and possibly even a better deal than we had with C2K. What am I missing?
05-06-2011, 09:03 AM
#294
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Thanks. Got it.
However, that makes it sound like they (SWA guys) are making more because they're working more. But yet the AirTran Welcome document states that the average SWA pilot makes $230K (Captains) and $140K (F/O's), averaging 105 TFP (trips for pay) per month and 18 days off. Hey, I don't mind working hard while I'm at work. Getting $230K annually while averaging 12 days per month to fly a domestic narrowbody sounds like an infinitely better deal (about $100K more per year than I'm currently getting as a DC-9 Captain, and more days off to boot!) than what we currently have at Delta, and possibly even a better deal than we had with C2K. What am I missing?
However, that makes it sound like they (SWA guys) are making more because they're working more. But yet the AirTran Welcome document states that the average SWA pilot makes $230K (Captains) and $140K (F/O's), averaging 105 TFP (trips for pay) per month and 18 days off. Hey, I don't mind working hard while I'm at work. Getting $230K annually while averaging 12 days per month to fly a domestic narrowbody sounds like an infinitely better deal (about $100K more per year than I'm currently getting as a DC-9 Captain, and more days off to boot!) than what we currently have at Delta, and possibly even a better deal than we had with C2K. What am I missing?
One TFP is not an hour. It's less than that... I can't remember exactly how much, though. And their trips pay a crapload more rig/min day than ours do when you do the conversion between TFP and credit hours.
As far as PG's comment about how years ago they were tried to be claimed as our peer by management. Well, the simple fact is they weren't. They didn't fly into any major hubs and were a small carrier that cherry picked low demand routes. That has all changed.... they are now the largest domestic carrier in the US and run a hub and spoke system (ahem... large focus cities? yeah, ATL is a large focus city for us...) with a decent amount of point to point as well.
They have placed themselves in our peer group through years of growth. And soon they will be competing with us on local international as well as Hawaii.
05-06-2011, 09:11 AM
#295
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
One TFP is not an hour. It's less than that... I can't remember exactly how much, though.
As far as PG's comment about how years ago they were tried to be claimed as our peer by management. Well, the simple fact is they weren't. They didn't fly into any major hubs and were a small carrier that cherry picked low demand routes. That has all changed.... they are now the largest domestic carrier in the US and run a hub and spoke system (ahem... large focus cities? yeah, ATL is a large focus city for us...) with a decent amount of point to point as well.
As far as PG's comment about how years ago they were tried to be claimed as our peer by management. Well, the simple fact is they weren't. They didn't fly into any major hubs and were a small carrier that cherry picked low demand routes. That has all changed.... they are now the largest domestic carrier in the US and run a hub and spoke system (ahem... large focus cities? yeah, ATL is a large focus city for us...) with a decent amount of point to point as well.
Then, as you point out, they are now the largest U.S. domestic carrier with a good deal of their operations closely resembling our "hub and spoke" (or whatever you want to call it). The more I think about this, the more wrong PG and his DALPA "strategic thinkers" appear to be!
05-06-2011, 11:05 AM
#296
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,469
Averaged 18.1 days off per month last year. High time flyer.
18 days off, after sick, vacation, etc, etc, for an AVERAGE, doesn't seem that impressive if I can average that while busting my butt flying.
The pay, for n/b flying, is nice.
18 days off, after sick, vacation, etc, etc, for an AVERAGE, doesn't seem that impressive if I can average that while busting my butt flying.
The pay, for n/b flying, is nice.
05-06-2011, 11:17 AM
#297
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Just curious, are you saying you averaged 18.1 days off NOT including time off for vacation, sick, etc.? And are you a SWA pilot?
05-06-2011, 11:36 AM
#298
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,469
Not SW. Looked at how many days I worked last year, 148, for everything. That's actual days away from home. Flying, training, hearings, appeals, etc, etc. 
The vacation, sick, off, was 217 days, so it's 18.1 including vacation, etc. Sick was a handful of days(illness in family/bereavement leave).
Don't know how SW defined 'days off', but 148 gone, 217 home, are my numbers.
The vacation, sick, off, was 217 days, so it's 18.1 including vacation, etc. Sick was a handful of days(illness in family/bereavement leave).
Don't know how SW defined 'days off', but 148 gone, 217 home, are my numbers.
05-06-2011, 11:45 AM
#299
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
Not SW. Looked at how many days I worked last year, 148, for everything. That's actual days away from home. Flying, training, hearings, appeals, etc, etc.
The vacation, sick, off, was 217 days, so it's 18.1 including vacation, etc. Sick was a handful of days(illness in family/bereavement leave).
Don't know how SW defined 'days off', but 148 gone, 217 home, are my numbers.
The vacation, sick, off, was 217 days, so it's 18.1 including vacation, etc. Sick was a handful of days(illness in family/bereavement leave).
Don't know how SW defined 'days off', but 148 gone, 217 home, are my numbers.
05-06-2011, 12:08 PM
#300
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
