DAL early retirement 2009/2011
05-05-2011, 03:48 AM
#261
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
That would be unacceptable. So save this post.
Scope will get firmer language which will force 2 things:
1. a 76 seat payrate on our contract and
2. A merger or divestiture of/with Alaska.
Company 401k contributions will go to 20-25%.
SWA payrates will be the DAL narrorbody benchmark with widebodies proportionally higher.
Scope will get firmer language which will force 2 things:
1. a 76 seat payrate on our contract and
2. A merger or divestiture of/with Alaska.
Company 401k contributions will go to 20-25%.
SWA payrates will be the DAL narrorbody benchmark with widebodies proportionally higher.
05-05-2011, 03:53 AM
#262
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
If we are talking about 90% of a 10% raise with little to no modifications then it is a different story, and one that we would really need to weigh based upon the external factors that are effecting the industry.
05-05-2011, 05:19 AM
#263
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Pineapple,
I have to jump in on this and then go to bed.
You are wrong. NWA ALPA negotiated somewhere around a 15% (??) pay raise across the board within a year or so of 9/11.
It might have been the last contract that we didn't have memrat for, because I remember most pilots were ****ed that we didn't get more.
Whatever it was, DC-9 captains went from making $166 per hour to well over $190.
So, maybe you should take some notes from the ONLY pilot group to negotiate HIGHER pay rates than the DAL pilot group since 9/11.
(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
I have to jump in on this and then go to bed.
You are wrong. NWA ALPA negotiated somewhere around a 15% (??) pay raise across the board within a year or so of 9/11.
It might have been the last contract that we didn't have memrat for, because I remember most pilots were ****ed that we didn't get more.
Whatever it was, DC-9 captains went from making $166 per hour to well over $190.
So, maybe you should take some notes from the ONLY pilot group to negotiate HIGHER pay rates than the DAL pilot group since 9/11.
(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
05-05-2011, 05:40 AM
#264
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
[LEFT]Except as expressly provided otherwise, this agreement will become effective on October 30,
2008, will continue in full force and effect through December 31, 2012, and will renew itself
without change through each succeeding December 31st, unless written notice of intended
change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title I, of the Railway Labor Act, as
amended, by either party hereto at least 60 days but no more than 270 days prior to
December 31, 2012 or December 31st in any year thereafter. In the absence of an agreement by March 31, 2013, the parties agree to jointly petition the National Mediation Board for mediation services.
Denny
05-05-2011, 05:48 AM
#266
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Okay... putting all that aside. Can't you at least agree that we should be paid as well if not better than SWA pilots? Their 737 Captains are making an annual average of over $230K, doing flying that is probably most comparable to our MD88/90 flying. So if you bring our MD88/90 pay up to SWA's pay, and then apply the same percentage increase to all our other fleets, I think that would be reasonable as minimally acceptable. Just my personal opinion. It doesn't get us back to the buying power of our 1986 rates + inflation or C2K + inflation... but it gets us back in the ballpark of what we all signed up for.
And I don't think it's too late for you and me. We probably can't fully recover our career expectations because we've gone through half a decade at bankruptcy/emergency massively reduced pay and lost the pension. But going forward, I think we have very good earning potential for the remainder of our careers. The hard part seems to be in getting ALPA to buy off on this concept. And I'm of the opinion that, if they don't come around quickly to this way of thinking, then they should be replaced. I'm out of patience with DALPA/ALPA. They are showing no signs of pursuing any kind of significant restoration. PG's posts are a perfect example. And I believe his way of thinking is precisely in line with this MEC administration. UNSAT. And no, that's not emotional, it's just business. We're paying good money for ALPA's "representation." If they aren't up to the task, then we should find someone else who is. And we better do it quickly. It's just business.
And I don't think it's too late for you and me. We probably can't fully recover our career expectations because we've gone through half a decade at bankruptcy/emergency massively reduced pay and lost the pension. But going forward, I think we have very good earning potential for the remainder of our careers. The hard part seems to be in getting ALPA to buy off on this concept. And I'm of the opinion that, if they don't come around quickly to this way of thinking, then they should be replaced. I'm out of patience with DALPA/ALPA. They are showing no signs of pursuing any kind of significant restoration. PG's posts are a perfect example. And I believe his way of thinking is precisely in line with this MEC administration. UNSAT. And no, that's not emotional, it's just business. We're paying good money for ALPA's "representation." If they aren't up to the task, then we should find someone else who is. And we better do it quickly. It's just business.
As far as the association goes.. I will back DALPA, but I couldn't give a rat's ass about the national organization. No.. I don't "back the pac"... never have.. never will. But.... I am demanding results now. I am still hopeful, but one of my reps backing of the retarded swap across base lines has me a bit frustrated. I hope this is a one time thing.
I will still drive Lee's car to DC whenever he asks me too..... (yes I meant to use the spelling "too")
05-05-2011, 05:53 AM
#267
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Do we deserve at least as much as SWA pilots? Absolutely... IMO, way more. I do find a phrase that you use interesting too... "It's just business". Like it or not, we are on the liability side of the company's ledger. The SWA pilots are too, but because we are in two different kinds of businesses, they haven't been tested.... yet. So being that we have chosen to be on the liability side of a business where operating margins are (since deregulation) razor thin, -and this is IMO- a 70% "restoration" is unrealistic. I think that 40% is probably way outside the realm of reality too, but I think we should fight for it. From my POV.. and I know that you know this.. I want to get rid of the seat/size/weight/speed/pounds of paint pay scale. A captain is a captain is a captain. You on the -9 are no less important than I am on the -ER or Carl is on the whale.
As far as the association goes.. I will back DALPA, but I couldn't give a rat's ass about the national organization. No.. I don't "back the pac"... never have.. never will. But.... I am demanding results now. I am still hopeful, but one of my reps backing of the retarded swap across base lines has me a bit frustrated. I hope this is a one time thing.
I will still drive Lee's car to DC whenever he asks me too.....
As far as the association goes.. I will back DALPA, but I couldn't give a rat's ass about the national organization. No.. I don't "back the pac"... never have.. never will. But.... I am demanding results now. I am still hopeful, but one of my reps backing of the retarded swap across base lines has me a bit frustrated. I hope this is a one time thing.
I will still drive Lee's car to DC whenever he asks me too.....
I had a very long and drawn out conversation with a few of my reps about this. I totally see your point. I guess I was naive to think that a senior pilot would never WS a trip and then give it to his junior buddy, effectively taking seniority out of it.
From what I gather, the issues that you have highlighted are the issues that many of the reps want fixed and neutralized before they would employ any type of base to base swap board.
One idea that I heard was that a trip would have to remain on the board for 72 hrs and then could possibly be done in system seniority order. Either way, T, I see you point, and did not look at it from the less than honest perspective. Thank you for calling this to light, I never though our guys would play this way. Frankly, it is sad that we need to protect against it, but that is reality.
05-05-2011, 06:32 AM
#268
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
Exactly! SWA's most challenging place to fly will soon be SJU! Do they fly to MED places, yellow fever shots, S America, Africa, Europe, Asia....etc..
My third grader could argue that we are a more valuable skill set with potential to maximize revenue flying to these crazy places! If Dalpa can't...we need to FIND SOMEONE WHO CAN!
05-05-2011, 06:36 AM
#269
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
05-05-2011, 07:01 AM
#270
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I see what you stated above as yet another example of how our expectations have been managed/controlled. Successful businesses with competent management do not treat employees as merely a "liability." Surely, you've seen the numerous times I've posted about how employees are one of the greatest ASSETS to a business. I'm not just pulling that out of my butt. It's what I was taught in college at a very good business school. It's what I learned growing up as the fourth generation in a family business and was further reinforced as I later ran that business for several years. Certainly, costs are important... and there is a limit to what you can pay employees. But I've never heard of a company slashing a group of employees pay by 42% in an extreme emergency situation... and then just assuming it's okay to keep it there years after the emergency was over, while at the same time increasing my own pay back to pre-emergency levels. I would never in a million years as an executive think I could get away with that. For one, I would expect to completely trash morale and lose the loyalty of my employees. And furthermore, I know it would be bad business and extremely poor leadership to do so. Why? Because I recognize that employees are one of the most valued assets to my business, and NOT a "liability."
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