Originally Posted by NuGuy

Not true. The NWA guys negotiated a contract extension with two %4.5 annual raises after 9/11. This was in 2002, and ran until 2004.

There was also some bargaining after the BK contract that, um, corrected some deficiencies in the BK contract.

Nu

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy

You do realize that the DAL pilot group is essentially the ONLY pilot group to have negotiated any pay raises since 9/11, don't you? Even FDX and SWAPA, with their record breaking balance sheets, settled for minimal raises.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Perspective on Pay

Here’s a little perspective on our pay rates using October 1, 1986 and January 1, 2000 (1996 concessionary contract – preC2K) rates:

Let’s take a look at some examples of these past rates, and see what it would take in 2012 for true restoration of the buying power they provided:

(First we’ll look at some MD-88 Captain 12 year rates as a basis for comparison, and then we’ll look at some 767-300 Captain 12 year rates for the same comparisons.)

October 1, 1986 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $135.53

January 1, 2000 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate (pre-C2K): $175.00

January 1, 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $167.68

Adjusted for inflation to 2012 – (source: Tom’s Inflation Calculator)
The 1986 rate of $135.53 would be $280.13 in 2012.
The 2000 (pre-C2K) rate of $175.00 would be $233.58 in 2012.

To bring the October 1, 1986 rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $280.13 in 2012, would require a 67% increase to the current contract’s 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) rate of $167.68.

To bring the January 1, 2000 (pre-C2K) rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $233.58 in 2012, would require a 33.5% increase to the current contract’s 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) rate of $167.68. In other words, our new 2012 contract would need a 33.5% increase to this rate just to bring its buying power to the same level as the 1996 concessionary contract rate!


Now for the 767-300 –

October 1, 1986 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $158.21

January 1, 2000 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate (pre-C2K): $203.25

January 1, 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $188.96

Adjusted for inflation to 2012 – (source: Tom’s Inflation Calculator)
The 1986 rate of $158.21 would be $327.01 in 2012.
The 2000 rate of $203.25 would be $271.29 in 2012.

To bring the October 1, 1986 rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $327.01 in 2012, would require a 73% increase to the current contract’s 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) rate of $188.96.

To bring the January 1, 2000 (pre-C2K) rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $271.29 in 2012, would require a 43.5% increase to the current contract‘s 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) rate of $188.96. In other words, our new 2012 contract would need a 43.5% increase to this rate just to bring its buying power to the same level as the 1996 concessionary contract rate!


Now for C2K buying power restoration:

C2K MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate in 2004: $237.37
Adjusted for inflation to 2012: $284.26*
* End of current contract rate would need a 70% increase to achieve this!

C2K 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate in 2004: $267.52
Adjusted for inflation to 2012: $320.36*
* End of current contract rate would need a 70% increase to achieve this!

Originally Posted by tsquare

So are you saying that DALPA will not consider SWA 737 rates in building OUR section 3 because "they are not a peer"? That is a scary proposition. And yes.. fear is an emotion too...

Originally Posted by tsquare

For me to go to $271/hr would be wonderful... $327 would be even better. Will that happen? At the risk of sounding like one of the managed expectations guys.. I highly doubt it. I think since SWA and all those "discount" airlines came on the scene post deregulation, the dynamic has forever changed. They trashed the industry with high volume, low fare seats. I blame them waaaay more than DCI for the demise of our way of life. People don't expect to pay a fair price anymore.. thanks SWA. Does that mean we shouldn't be the highest paid? Absolutely not. Will we? Like PG said, I think we need more creative ways to get paid. Management figured out how to bring revenue without the gubbamint sticking their hand in our pocket.. maybe there is a way for us to do that. Maybe it is too late for you and I.. but like so many are fond of saying, we should leave the industry better than we found it. And seat pay is NOT the way to do THAT... I know.. different rant... So I'll leave it at that.

/END

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy

That's not the question. IF we can get 40%, I have no doubt the others will quickly follow. That's how pattern bargaining works. The question for all is, how do you get 40% above the current "market" rate, unless the NMB will release you; which at the moment appears to be a non-starter.

THAT'S why it's so important for everyone to do their part. If APA, and LCC, and UCAL would get off their collective A$$ES, we wouldn't be the only ones negotiating improvements...

You do realize that the DAL pilot group is essentially the ONLY pilot group to have negotiated any pay raises since 9/11, don't you? Even FDX and SWAPA, with their record breaking balance sheets, settled for minimal raises.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Okay... putting all that aside. Can't you at least agree that we should be paid as well if not better than SWA pilots? Their 737 Captains are making an annual average of over $230K, doing flying that is probably most comparable to our MD88/90 flying. So if you bring our MD88/90 pay up to SWA's pay, and then apply the same percentage increase to all our other fleets, I think that would be reasonable as minimally acceptable. Just my personal opinion. It doesn't get us back to the buying power of our 1986 rates + inflation or C2K + inflation... but it gets us back in the ballpark of what we all signed up for.

And I don't think it's too late for you and me. We probably can't fully recover our career expectations because we've gone through half a decade at bankruptcy/emergency massively reduced pay and lost the pension. But going forward, I think we have very good earning potential for the remainder of our careers. The hard part seems to be in getting ALPA to buy off on this concept. And I'm of the opinion that, if they don't come around quickly to this way of thinking, then they should be replaced. I'm out of patience with DALPA/ALPA. They are showing no signs of pursuing any kind of significant restoration. PG's posts are a perfect example. And I believe his way of thinking is precisely in line with this MEC administration. UNSAT. And no, that's not emotional, it's just business. We're paying good money for ALPA's "representation." If they aren't up to the task, then we should find someone else who is. And we better do it quickly. It's just business.

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

I agree with your first paragraph in it's entirety.

Maybe I'm naive but I think every delta pilot, including the MEC and all pilots volunteering within ALPA, wants signifcant increases in pay (like you described above) and significant scope restoration. The question is how do we get there? I wish I knew.

Denny

Originally Posted by 1234

If Denny Crane doesn't know how to get there then we are screwed.