Pineapple Guy

That's not the question. IF we can get 40%, I have no doubt the others will quickly follow. That's how pattern bargaining works. The question for all is, how do you get 40% above the current "market" rate, unless the NMB will release you; which at the moment appears to be a non-starter.

THAT'S why it's so important for everyone to do their part. If APA, and LCC, and UCAL would get off their collective A$$ES, we wouldn't be the only ones negotiating improvements...

You do realize that the DAL pilot group is essentially the ONLY pilot group to have negotiated any pay raises since 9/11, don't you? Even FDX and SWAPA, with their record breaking balance sheets, settled for minimal raises.

acl65pilot

Hey PG,
Maybe they are waiting for our demands to match their so that we can all make the argument that the costs will be equal

Bluto

Yes!
Denny, Absolutely terrifying that you had to point this out.

PG, I've never been an ALPA basher, but reading your last few posts has my blood boiling. By selectively ignoring any fact that supports substantial improvements you suggest that expectation management is your goal, not working for those improvements. Management's function is to tell us how much we have already, how difficult the industry is, etc. Our union's function is to negotiate on our behalf and give us honest, reliable information to help us make decisions. Your posts here do not meet that standard.

tsquare

PG said this:

Then you said this:
Not really a quantum leap of logic to see what you meant. And believe me, I get it that we need substantial increases to get us back to where the profession should be. No one that has not been living in a cave in Afghanistan doesn't realize that. I do still want a definition of "restoring the profession" though. I have no idea what that is. I do know that since deregulation, we are not in the same industry where captains enjoyed a Cadillac on each rotation. Those days are gone. And I think it is pathetic that SWA is the gold standard now. They have never set the bar in any contract, and they sure won't now. So in many ways, you know that I agree with you, but DAL is a great company, and will be back on top very soon.. of that I have a lot of confidence.

tsquare

So are you saying that DALPA will not consider SWA 737 rates in building OUR section 3 because "they are not a peer"? That is a scary proposition. And yes.. fear is an emotion too...

Pineapple Guy

^^^^^^^^^^^^ this!

Pineapple Guy

No, I'm not saying that at all. First, that is WAY above my pay grade. But Second, I am on here being a Devil's advocate to help guys sharpen their arguments for WHY we should be paid more than we currently are.

Saying "it's FAIR", or "we're the BIGGEST, we should be paid the MOST", or comparing it to C2K will all be met with a big BFD by management. And demanding anything way above the new industry norm and threatening to strike if we don't get it will be met with a big "NYET" by the NMB, effectively putting us on the sidelines indefinitely.

We deserve a helluva a lot more than we are currently being paid; and will need to think outside the box to find a way to achieve that.

DAL 88 Driver

I'm not sure we're ever going to get to a precise definition of "restoring the profession." But I think the basic concept of getting it back to the standard of living most of us reasonably expected when we got into the career is what we should be striving for. And more specifically, we should be defining this as the broad objective. The specifics will have to fall into place as we go forward. But whatever we do needs to be measured against that broad objective. Make sense?

So... as far as your desire to have a definition... I wrote a document that provides some perspective on the pay aspect of it. The document is 100% factual. It looks at a couple of representative Delta pay rates (post deregulation) from 1986, 1999 (1996 concessionary contract rates), and C2K. I've applied some cost of living increases to these rates and then demonstrated what it would take to adjust our current contract's December 31, 2012 rates to these values. I'm not necessarily advocating any particular outcome from this document. But I think it is helpful in adding perspective that could help each of us determine for ourselves what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. I suspect that, after it's all said and done, most of us won't be that far apart... as long as we look at it factually, unemotionally, and don't fall victim to the very significant attempts that are taking place to manage our expectations. If I paste the document into this post, it might exceed the max number of characters. So, I'll paste it into a subsequent post. Unfortunately, the formatting (bold highlights, etc.) won't copy/paste into this forum... and I'm not going to take the time to go back through and fix it. But you should be able to read the raw data and get the gist. You've probably seen this before, because I think I've posted it here before. But I don't think it ever hurts to take a look at where we have been (post deregulation) and compare it to where we are today.

DAL 88 Driver

Perspective on Pay

Here’s a little perspective on our pay rates using October 1, 1986 and January 1, 2000 (1996 concessionary contract – preC2K) rates:

Let’s take a look at some examples of these past rates, and see what it would take in 2012 for true restoration of the buying power they provided:

(First we’ll look at some MD-88 Captain 12 year rates as a basis for comparison, and then we’ll look at some 767-300 Captain 12 year rates for the same comparisons.)

October 1, 1986 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $135.53

January 1, 2000 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate (pre-C2K): $175.00

January 1, 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $167.68

Adjusted for inflation to 2012 – (source: Tom’s Inflation Calculator)
The 1986 rate of $135.53 would be $280.13 in 2012.
The 2000 (pre-C2K) rate of $175.00 would be $233.58 in 2012.

To bring the October 1, 1986 rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $280.13 in 2012, would require a 67% increase to the current contract’s 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) rate of $167.68.

To bring the January 1, 2000 (pre-C2K) rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $233.58 in 2012, would require a 33.5% increase to the current contract’s 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) rate of $167.68. In other words, our new 2012 contract would need a 33.5% increase to this rate just to bring its buying power to the same level as the 1996 concessionary contract rate!


Now for the 767-300 –

October 1, 1986 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $158.21

January 1, 2000 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate (pre-C2K): $203.25

January 1, 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $188.96

Adjusted for inflation to 2012 – (source: Tom’s Inflation Calculator)
The 1986 rate of $158.21 would be $327.01 in 2012.
The 2000 rate of $203.25 would be $271.29 in 2012.

To bring the October 1, 1986 rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $327.01 in 2012, would require a 73% increase to the current contract’s 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) rate of $188.96.

To bring the January 1, 2000 (pre-C2K) rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $271.29 in 2012, would require a 43.5% increase to the current contract‘s 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) rate of $188.96. In other words, our new 2012 contract would need a 43.5% increase to this rate just to bring its buying power to the same level as the 1996 concessionary contract rate!


Now for C2K buying power restoration:

C2K MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate in 2004: $237.37
Adjusted for inflation to 2012: $284.26*
* End of current contract rate would need a 70% increase to achieve this!

C2K 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate in 2004: $267.52
Adjusted for inflation to 2012: $320.36*
* End of current contract rate would need a 70% increase to achieve this!

NuGuy

Not true. The NWA guys negotiated a contract extension with two %4.5 annual raises after 9/11. This was in 2002, and ran until 2004.

There was also some bargaining after the BK contract that, um, corrected some deficiencies in the BK contract.

Nu