acl65pilot

B-I-N-G-O That is it in a nutshell.

80ktsClamp

He sure is doing a great job of arguing otherwise with the FACTS.

newKnow

It looks like we have come to a point where we are saying the same thing: You are presenting facts to support your opinion that DALPA's negotiating tactics are better than the APA's.

I guess where our views part ways is the stock we put into the "facts." Whether ALPA secured those "facts" for us in the past or not, is immaterial to me. The fact is that today it seems to me and many others that we are very much underpaid. The fact is that today it seems to me and many others that scope is being ignored.

Why is ALPA not getting credit for the pay raises we got in the past?

Because today Southwest FO's make more than many of our captains, while some people who are associated with ALPA say we are doing pretty good compared to our "peers."

Why is ALPA not getting credit for job protections we got in the past?

Because today a major airline is flying our routes and ALPA sends us an email saying that it's not a violation of our contract.

Why you and ALPA seem to want to rest on what you think they have done in the past is quite puzzling. If you think that operating in the business as usual style of hide the ball, we will let you know later, secret undercover, non-communicative style of leadership will work today, then it is my opinion that ALPA will be in for a world of hurt in the long run.

That style might have worked in the past, but IMO ALPA had better learn that today it's a different story.

ALPA needs to learn to start saying what its pilot group is feeling, deaf ears get no credit for past works.

Denny Crane

Let me preface this comment with something I think we can all agree on. Every one of us wants a SIGNIGICANTLY improved contract. The debate is about what avenue do we take to get there.........

Now, I love to hear a spirited/heated debate and both sides of the argument bring relevant discussion and facts. What really detracts from ones argument and turns me off is name calling like a 2 year old............

Denny

Denny Crane

Well said NewK!

Denny

newKnow

Denny!

Where ya been?

Happy Easter (late).

Carl Spackler

You're so close to a correct analysis here Pineapple Guy. So close!

The Hawaiian guys voted AGAINST the TA that their ALPA reps first gave them. The Hawaiian guys did so after enduring the standard: "This is the best deal we could get" and "If you vote this down, we'll have to start over from square one with a whole new negotiating committee", etc, etc. They voted it down anyway. And surprise, surprise, none of those things happened. The only thing that DID happen is the Hawaiian guys enjoying a contract that is far superior to ours at Delta achieved with our "proactive engagement" (surrender first strategy).

So here's the correct analysis: Let's not vote in THEIR union...Let's learn from their pilots' courageous stance to tell their union: "Go back and try again"

Carl

Pineapple Guy

OK - so their MEC was out of touch with their membership. I guess that happens sometimes. It shouldn't, but that's why we have membership ratification. Sounds to me, like the ALPA process worked exactly as it was intended.

So, which union went back in there and negotiated for that "contract that is far superior to ours...."?

Sputnik

Isn't there a DPA thread? Not to ruin anyone's fun but I enjoy reading/learning from these Delta threads, and somehow all of them seem to be turning into DPA-DALPA peeing contests.

Carl Spackler

You're right PG, it shouldn't happen. But here's why it happens: Local MEC's are forced to rely on ALPA expertise in many areas - some would even say all areas. The finances for everything comes from ALPA. As such, local MEC's get fed very misleading bits of data intended to persuade that MEC in seeing things the way ALPA national wants them to be seen. This process is slow and steady. Then one day, an MEC wakes up to find that they've completely lost touch with their pilots. It doesn't have to be this way, but it is.

You and I disagree on ALPA's ability to be fixed from within its own processes. I am absolutely certain that it is hopeless because ALPA national does not WANT to be fixed. As such, they will fight to the death any attempt at reform. You think otherwise, I know.

You can't mean that the process was intended to include a bad TA, then scare tactics from the MEC, then rejection by the members, then more negotiations, then acceptance of a much better deal by the members...do you? That's the optimum process of which you are so proud?

ALPA.

What pilot group ordered their union to get back in there and try again?
The pilots of Hawaiian Airlines.

I don't want the pilots of Delta Air Lines to forget this.

Carl