DAL early retirement 2009/2011
04-24-2011, 10:06 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
'Nuff said, you can't be serious. Who do you consider to be "our peers?" I can think of many and I can't think of any who we are paid higher than.
Me thinks you need to go back to the ALPA briefing points and take another look. If that's what they're preaching, they're woefully mistaken and we will all lose this go around. I, for one, won't stand for it. Losing, that is.
04-24-2011, 11:42 PM
#132
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
Funny, Carl. I just present FACTS.
FACT #1: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, extracted the highest bankruptcy claim value (in claim $$) of ANY of the 4 airlines that went through bankruptcy.
FACT #2: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, extracted the highest cash return on that claim and put more money in DAL pilots' pockets than ANY of the other 3 network carriers that went through the identical bankruptcy process.
FACT #3: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, extracted the highest not
value of ANY of the 3 airlines that had their pensions terminated in
bankruptcy.
FACT #4: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, and now with the participation of the former NWA MEC, was the FIRST to negotiate an agreement PRIOR to a merger, which resulted in REAL cash put in your pocket in the form of shares of stock of the post merger company.
FACT #5: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, with the participation of the former NWA MEC, negotiated a contract that now has DAL pilots paid higher than ANY other pilot group among our peer group
FACT #6: The Delta pilots have received larger percentage raises the past 3 years than ANY other airline.
FACT #7: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, with the participation of the former NWA MEC, negotiated a contract that put 6.5% of pay into pilots' pockets in February in the form of profit sharing.
FACT #8: APA, with their clear objectives, has achieved nothing.
Having said all that, it is my OPINION, that we are still grossly underpaid
for the expertise we bring to the table; but it is also my OPINION that the NMB could care less about that.
Those are the facts, plain and simple. It doesn't mean I'm happy with where we are, but they do speak for themselves.
Meanwhile, DPA can't meet a single objective they lay out for themselves, nor can APA. And yet you guys support them, because they both TALK tough.
"RHETORIC not RESULTS". There's another bag tag for you. No charge.
FACT #1: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, extracted the highest bankruptcy claim value (in claim $$) of ANY of the 4 airlines that went through bankruptcy.
FACT #2: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, extracted the highest cash return on that claim and put more money in DAL pilots' pockets than ANY of the other 3 network carriers that went through the identical bankruptcy process.
FACT #3: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, extracted the highest not
value of ANY of the 3 airlines that had their pensions terminated in
bankruptcy.
FACT #4: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, and now with the participation of the former NWA MEC, was the FIRST to negotiate an agreement PRIOR to a merger, which resulted in REAL cash put in your pocket in the form of shares of stock of the post merger company.
FACT #5: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, with the participation of the former NWA MEC, negotiated a contract that now has DAL pilots paid higher than ANY other pilot group among our peer group
FACT #6: The Delta pilots have received larger percentage raises the past 3 years than ANY other airline.
FACT #7: The Delta MEC, led by Lee Moak, with the participation of the former NWA MEC, negotiated a contract that put 6.5% of pay into pilots' pockets in February in the form of profit sharing.
FACT #8: APA, with their clear objectives, has achieved nothing.
Having said all that, it is my OPINION, that we are still grossly underpaid
for the expertise we bring to the table; but it is also my OPINION that the NMB could care less about that.
Those are the facts, plain and simple. It doesn't mean I'm happy with where we are, but they do speak for themselves.
Meanwhile, DPA can't meet a single objective they lay out for themselves, nor can APA. And yet you guys support them, because they both TALK tough.
"RHETORIC not RESULTS". There's another bag tag for you. No charge.
Soon the Airtran guys will be paid more than some of our widebody pilots, but I guess you don't want to count them as our peers either, right? You prefer almost bankrupt American pilots. That would make us look even better. We better hear some of that rhetoric soon from O'malley, or my DPA card will be sent in soon. Time for restoration. You may be right about 18% sending in their cards to the DPA, but another 58% are seriously thinking about it. Time for action.
04-25-2011, 02:34 AM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Very nicely played, pineapple.
You are distorting my whole post by deletion. Here is the most important sentence I wrote, which you somehow forgot to copy.
Granted. Your figures by themselves are probably factual ( I don't care to double check your work.)
But, those figures are not what is being debated. You are, by inference, asserting that APA's negotiating method is inferior and ALPA's negotiating method is superior. This is not factual.
You are distorting my whole post by deletion. Here is the most important sentence I wrote, which you somehow forgot to copy.
Granted. Your figures by themselves are probably factual ( I don't care to double check your work.)
But, those figures are not what is being debated. You are, by inference, asserting that APA's negotiating method is inferior and ALPA's negotiating method is superior. This is not factual.
No where did I say that or even imply that. What I don't understand is why ALPA gets zero credit for what occurred. You can provide an OPINION that ALPA had nothing to do with the facts, but I challenge you to provide any facts to support that opinion.
04-25-2011, 02:40 AM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Wrong on both facts. The Delta MEC and Lee Moak did no such thing. Neither did ALPA's hand picked no bid "investment bank" Athena Group. (cronyism note; Athena Group = one lawyer who "broke away" from Cohen Simon Weiss to start an investment advisory group)
The individual who single handedly accomplished facts 1 and 2 is none other than Douglas Parker, CEO of USAirways. His bid for Delta raised the asking price on debt from approx. 30 cents on the dollar to the mid 60's.
Your statement is completely untrue PG.
The individual who single handedly accomplished facts 1 and 2 is none other than Douglas Parker, CEO of USAirways. His bid for Delta raised the asking price on debt from approx. 30 cents on the dollar to the mid 60's.
Your statement is completely untrue PG.
FACT: Doug Parker didn't negotiate the size of our claim
FACT: Doug Parker didn't buy any of our claim
So, your inference that his takeover bid affected the price of the claim is just that, an inference. And I agree that it certainly was a big factor, though as Slow has mentioned on multiple occasions, even after his bid fizzled, the claim sale process continued and the price remained high right up through bankruptcy exit.
And while we're talking about ALPA's "hand picked no-bid 'investment bank' Athena", I should remind you that they outsmarted some of the largest and presumably "smartest" investment banks in the world, who all bought our claim at a price higher than the stock EVER has achieved since our bankruptcy exit. EVER.
OPINION: He was worth every penny ALPA paid him.
04-25-2011, 02:45 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
OPINION: Our peer group should be those airlines who were similarly situated and went through bankruptcy about the same time we did. Meaning, UAL, USAir, NWA, and DAL.
But I'm sure you'd scoff at that. I already know....
YOUR OPINION: LUV and UPS (can't count FDX because they are an ALPA carrier and all ALPA carriers are bad, bad, bad...
)So, let's turn to an independent 3rd party; one with no agenda and no axe to grind. Try this: Airline Pilot Central
04-25-2011, 03:18 AM
#136
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
PG;
Sometimes I think you are an ALPA apologist, but my opinion is changing. You are really a DPA guy. An ALPA guy wouldnt be so openly pompous and repellant theby pushing fence sitters toward DPA.
I see what you are doing.
Sometimes I think you are an ALPA apologist, but my opinion is changing. You are really a DPA guy. An ALPA guy wouldnt be so openly pompous and repellant theby pushing fence sitters toward DPA.
I see what you are doing.
04-25-2011, 03:22 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Funny that you say that. Believe it or not, I have just as many beefs with ALPA as most guys on this board. The difference is I am trying to do what I can to change ALPA, rather than just sit here and complain about it. But the minute I think it is in the best interests of the DAL pilots to leave, I'll be working as hard as I can to do that as well. But DPA isn't it... in my opinion.
04-25-2011, 03:25 AM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Alaska $174
American $166
Continental $150/$169
Delta $174
United $137
USAirways $142W/$125E
Select Major/National/LCC rates
AirTran $163
Southwest $210
Sun Country $127
These are the rates posted on APC. So far I haven't typed one word of editorial comment.
Can you provide the "many" that you state above?
Editorial: I get that payrates don't tell the whole story, but even when factoring in the "extras" the list doesn't change much in the way of costs. I chose the 737 because that's what you fly, not because it makes any kind of point.
04-25-2011, 08:24 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Fair enough. First I'll provide my...
OPINION: Our peer group should be those airlines who were similarly situated and went through bankruptcy about the same time we did. Meaning, UAL, USAir, NWA, and DAL.
But I'm sure you'd scoff at that. I already know....
YOUR OPINION: LUV and UPS (can't count FDX because they are an ALPA carrier and all ALPA carriers are bad, bad, bad...)
So, let's turn to an independent 3rd party; one with no agenda and no axe to grind. Try this: Airline Pilot Central
OPINION: Our peer group should be those airlines who were similarly situated and went through bankruptcy about the same time we did. Meaning, UAL, USAir, NWA, and DAL.
But I'm sure you'd scoff at that. I already know....
YOUR OPINION: LUV and UPS (can't count FDX because they are an ALPA carrier and all ALPA carriers are bad, bad, bad...
)So, let's turn to an independent 3rd party; one with no agenda and no axe to grind. Try this: Airline Pilot Central
1. Use an airline from your bankruptcy peer group. A little defeatest, but that is what I expect from folks that suffer from low self esteem.
2. We will use your independent 3rd party.
I submit to all reading this thread, Hawaiian Airlines.
They went through BK the same year Delta and Northwest did. They also fly the same equipment we do as well. In fact, they fly 767's that were recently on Delta's certificate. They also fly the 717 that holds 123 people in mixed seating in a leisure market with LCC competition.
Imagine that!!
To follow up, they have expanded recently and compete directly with Delta in the Hawaiian-Japan/Korea market.
Now. Is that a good enough comparison so far?
Here is where the similarities stop.
Lets begin peeling the layers of the 717 onion back first. We are not going to go with straight numbers from APC since they don't have 737's to compare directly with, we will put more thought into them than that:
717 holds 123 people. Captain at 12 years is paid $162.00
That equals $1.317 dollars per hour/per seat.
Delta's 737 hold 160 people. So for equivelent pay we have 160 seats * 1.317 multiplier = $210.72 per hour.
In order for a Delta 737 Captain to be paid at the same level of compensation that a Hawaiian 717 captain is, they would have to earn $210 an hour.
Now, we can compare the 767 straight across if you like.
Hawaiian: $191.00 per hour
Delta: $182.00 per hour
Since this is so enlightening.....lets keep going shall we?
Delta per diem domestic $2.00
Hawaiian domestic $2.50
Delta International p/d $2.50
Hawaiian OCONUS pay! Wow, what a great idea!
This is fun, let's explore.....retirement.
Delta 11% + 2% 401k company match.
Hawaiian 19.4% 401k plus 2.40 a/b (new hires get 15%)
And, here is the gonad cracker.
Take the above rates and multiplier and apply it to the Achilles heel in the DAL PWA.....
The monthly guarantee.
Delta. Line holders 65 hrs. Reserve 70 hrs.
Hawaiian Line holders 75hrs. Reserve 75 hrs.
Results in much larger W2's and retirement, and they are a peer. Even an ALPA peer.
Last edited by TheManager; 04-25-2011 at 09:04 AM.
04-25-2011, 08:28 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
OK Ferret Face, lets do just that. We will:
1. Use an airline from your bankruptcy peer group. A little defeatest, but that is what I expect from folks that suffer from low self esteem.
2. We will use your independent 3rd party.
I submit to all reading this thread, Hawaiian Airlines.
They went through BK the same year Delta and Northwest did. They also fly the same equipment we do as well. In fact, they fly 767's that were recently on Delta's certificate. They also fly the 717 that holds 123 people in mixed seating in a leisure market with LCC competition.
Imagine that!!
To follow up, they have expanded recently and compete directly with Delta in the Hawaiian-Japan/Korea market.
Now. Is that a good enough comparison so far?
Here is where the similarities stop.
Lets begin peeling the layers of the 717 onion back first. We are not going to go with straight numbers from APC since they don't have 737's to compare directly with, we will put more thought into them than that:
717 holds 123 people. Captain at 12 years is paid $162.00
That equals $1.317 dollars per hour/per seat.
Delta's 737 hold 160 people. So for equivelent pay we have 160 seats * 1.317 multiplier = $210.72 per hour.
In order for a Delta 737 Captain to be paid at the same level of compensation that a Hawaiian 717 captain is, they would have to earn $210 an hour.
Now, we can compare the 767 straight across if you like.
Hawaiian: $191.00 per hour
Delta: $182.00 per hour
Since this is so enlightening.....lets keep going shall we?
Delta per diem domestic $2.00
Hawaiian domestic $2.50
Delta International p/d $2.50
Hawaiian OCONUS pay! Wow, what a great idea!
This is fun, let's explore.....retirement.
Delta 11% + 2% 401k company match.
Hawaiian 19.4% 401k plus 2.40 a/b (new hires get 15%)
And, here is the gonad cracker.
Take the above rates and multiplier and apply it to the Achilles heel in the DAL PWA.....
The monthly guarantee.
Delta. Line holders 65 hrs. Reserve 70 hrs.
Hawaiian Line holders 75hrs. Reserve 75 hrs.
Results in much larger W2's and retirement, and they are a peer. Even an ALPA peer.
1. Use an airline from your bankruptcy peer group. A little defeatest, but that is what I expect from folks that suffer from low self esteem.
2. We will use your independent 3rd party.
I submit to all reading this thread, Hawaiian Airlines.
They went through BK the same year Delta and Northwest did. They also fly the same equipment we do as well. In fact, they fly 767's that were recently on Delta's certificate. They also fly the 717 that holds 123 people in mixed seating in a leisure market with LCC competition.
Imagine that!!
To follow up, they have expanded recently and compete directly with Delta in the Hawaiian-Japan/Korea market.
Now. Is that a good enough comparison so far?
Here is where the similarities stop.
Lets begin peeling the layers of the 717 onion back first. We are not going to go with straight numbers from APC since they don't have 737's to compare directly with, we will put more thought into them than that:
717 holds 123 people. Captain at 12 years is paid $162.00
That equals $1.317 dollars per hour/per seat.
Delta's 737 hold 160 people. So for equivelent pay we have 160 seats * 1.317 multiplier = $210.72 per hour.
In order for a Delta 737 Captain to be paid at the same level of compensation that a Hawaiian 717 captain is, they would have to earn $210 an hour.
Now, we can compare the 767 straight across if you like.
Hawaiian: $191.00 per hour
Delta: $182.00 per hour
Since this is so enlightening.....lets keep going shall we?
Delta per diem domestic $2.00
Hawaiian domestic $2.50
Delta International p/d $2.50
Hawaiian OCONUS pay! Wow, what a great idea!
This is fun, let's explore.....retirement.
Delta 11% + 2% 401k company match.
Hawaiian 19.4% 401k plus 2.40 a/b (new hires get 15%)
And, here is the gonad cracker.
Take the above rates and multiplier and apply it to the Achilles heel in the DAL PWA.....
The monthly guarantee.
Delta. Line holders 65 hrs. Reserve 70 hrs.
Hawaiian Line holders 75hrs. Reserve 75 hrs.
Results in much larger W2's and retirement, and they are a peer. Even an ALPA peer.
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