Re: RAH
04-13-2011, 01:27 AM
#151
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
So there I was, 5500 hours, 2000 multi, and 5000 hours PIC. I was making 45K. I wanted to move to the majors. Unfortunately, I was not an ex military pilot (sorry, I was just an enlisted man). I had no problem with military pilots and aviators getting jobs before me: IMHO they earned it.
You say regional pilots should be willing to expect to be regional pilots for the rest of their lives. Well, I am perfectly happy being a forth year Saab captain,especially since I would take a significant pay cut if I chose to go to a mainline (except Delta, where I would about break even).
The thing you guys assume is that everyone will "move up" when they punch the requisite tickets and hit the flight time hoops.
One of the SKW guys I see commuting frequently is a reserve Bro CA. He has over 8000 hours of flight time. He was rejected by Southwest because he didn't have the magic PIC time. His question to SWA: You prefer a 2000 hour "wonder Captain" over someone with 4 times the experience? Their answer? Yes.
So he's stuck humping a Bro around trying to get the PIC time. Unfortunately, he's learned the lesson many of us have...once rejected, always rejected. SWA won't touch him again. He may be "stuck" at SKW for the rest of his career.
All Carl is trying to tell you is that the regionals have cut into the number of mainline jobs available to you newbies. And you exacerbate the problem by continuing to fly for peanuts.
Hopefully, the new 1500 hour threshold for Part 121 ops will cut off the supply of inexperienced pilots who are happy as pigs in slop to fly that 100 seat jet for $18 an hour.
When that happens, look to the mainlines to drop the frequency to East Slapbutt, North Dakota from 6 RJs a day to two 737s flown by mainline pilots. The more Regional airlines put out of business, the better odds for surviving pilots to get that gold ring.
I know it sounds harsh, but that's the REALITY of the airline biz. Japan has been flying widebodies domestically for years. Its about time U.S. airlines figured out that small markets have to make due with reduced frequency on bigger jets. Either that or drive to major cities. The consumers need to adjust.
Its basic economics. NO ONE can afford to run 50 seat jets. And the 70 seat jets are doomed as well if Bombardier can turn out 76 seat Q400s fast enough.
04-13-2011, 07:37 AM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
That's the question, isn't it?
Well, thanks. But, if it makes you feel better, in 1990 I had 5200 MILITARY hours (2000 in DC-9s) and couldn't get an interview at United. Why? I was "overqualified." They wanted pilots with 750 to 1500 total hours that they "could train to be United pilots." Of course, that was when the EEOC was leaning on them hard, so that might have been a consideration.
I was. And it stil wasn't good enough for United. However, looking back, I'm glad that things went the way they did.
Well, I'll admit one thing. At my company, nepotism rules. It not only gets you hired, it gets you into the Training Dept. and into Management, even if you're less qualified for those positions than people on the payroll. I know, it sucks, but that's the reality of the airline pilot game.
I think the you misinterpreted Carl. He's just saying that because WE screwed up in the past with regard to scope, the regional airline companies flourished. And they flourished due to the low wages regional pilots are willing to accept to "move up."
The thing you guys assume is that everyone will "move up" when they punch the requisite tickets and hit the flight time hoops.
One of the SKW guys I see commuting frequently is a reserve Bro CA. He has over 8000 hours of flight time. He was rejected by Southwest because he didn't have the magic PIC time. His question to SWA: You prefer a 2000 hour "wonder Captain" over someone with 4 times the experience? Their answer? Yes.
So he's stuck humping a Bro around trying to get the PIC time. Unfortunately, he's learned the lesson many of us have...once rejected, always rejected. SWA won't touch him again. He may be "stuck" at SKW for the rest of his career.
All Carl is trying to tell you is that the regionals have cut into the number of mainline jobs available to you newbies. And you exacerbate the problem by continuing to fly for peanuts.
Hopefully, the new 1500 hour threshold for Part 121 ops will cut off the supply of inexperienced pilots who are happy as pigs in slop to fly that 100 seat jet for $18 an hour.
When that happens, look to the mainlines to drop the frequency to East Slapbutt, North Dakota from 6 RJs a day to two 737s flown by mainline pilots. The more Regional airlines put out of business, the better odds for surviving pilots to get that gold ring.
I know it sounds harsh, but that's the REALITY of the airline biz. Japan has been flying widebodies domestically for years. Its about time U.S. airlines figured out that small markets have to make due with reduced frequency on bigger jets. Either that or drive to major cities. The consumers need to adjust.
Its basic economics. NO ONE can afford to run 50 seat jets. And the 70 seat jets are doomed as well if Bombardier can turn out 76 seat Q400s fast enough.
Well, thanks. But, if it makes you feel better, in 1990 I had 5200 MILITARY hours (2000 in DC-9s) and couldn't get an interview at United. Why? I was "overqualified." They wanted pilots with 750 to 1500 total hours that they "could train to be United pilots." Of course, that was when the EEOC was leaning on them hard, so that might have been a consideration.
I was. And it stil wasn't good enough for United. However, looking back, I'm glad that things went the way they did.
Well, I'll admit one thing. At my company, nepotism rules. It not only gets you hired, it gets you into the Training Dept. and into Management, even if you're less qualified for those positions than people on the payroll. I know, it sucks, but that's the reality of the airline pilot game.
I think the you misinterpreted Carl. He's just saying that because WE screwed up in the past with regard to scope, the regional airline companies flourished. And they flourished due to the low wages regional pilots are willing to accept to "move up."
The thing you guys assume is that everyone will "move up" when they punch the requisite tickets and hit the flight time hoops.
One of the SKW guys I see commuting frequently is a reserve Bro CA. He has over 8000 hours of flight time. He was rejected by Southwest because he didn't have the magic PIC time. His question to SWA: You prefer a 2000 hour "wonder Captain" over someone with 4 times the experience? Their answer? Yes.
So he's stuck humping a Bro around trying to get the PIC time. Unfortunately, he's learned the lesson many of us have...once rejected, always rejected. SWA won't touch him again. He may be "stuck" at SKW for the rest of his career.
All Carl is trying to tell you is that the regionals have cut into the number of mainline jobs available to you newbies. And you exacerbate the problem by continuing to fly for peanuts.
Hopefully, the new 1500 hour threshold for Part 121 ops will cut off the supply of inexperienced pilots who are happy as pigs in slop to fly that 100 seat jet for $18 an hour.
When that happens, look to the mainlines to drop the frequency to East Slapbutt, North Dakota from 6 RJs a day to two 737s flown by mainline pilots. The more Regional airlines put out of business, the better odds for surviving pilots to get that gold ring.
I know it sounds harsh, but that's the REALITY of the airline biz. Japan has been flying widebodies domestically for years. Its about time U.S. airlines figured out that small markets have to make due with reduced frequency on bigger jets. Either that or drive to major cities. The consumers need to adjust.
Its basic economics. NO ONE can afford to run 50 seat jets. And the 70 seat jets are doomed as well if Bombardier can turn out 76 seat Q400s fast enough.
Great post! As you can see by what I made bold above, I do disagree with you on that blanket statement with regards to a "rejection" at SWA. I personally have flown with those who have been turned down 2-3 times only to wind up getting hired here. The rejection could have required very minor improvements in their resume. When someone makes those improvements and shows up for another interview it is viewed as a plus IMHO. If you don't have a type and you keep coming back, well........ not much I can say.
Anyway, this is a great thread and I am enjoying it. Nice to see others doing battle with Carl the Great. Even though I agree with some of what he is saying, I don't necessarily agree with his delivery.
The Oscar
04-13-2011, 07:59 AM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 133
All Carl is trying to tell you is that the regionals have cut into the number of mainline jobs available to you newbies. And you exacerbate the problem by continuing to fly for peanuts.
Occasionally we have Airways mainline guys on our jumpseat and more often than not they are 10+ yr FOs and they typically complain about their horrible pay and how fortunate the regional captain is to be in the left seat making close to 6 figures and how he should stay there. Then they'll talk about how if regional FOs just wouldn't take these jobs to fly for peanuts they'd all be better off.
And there it goes again projecting blame at the easiest target available. Never mind the senior regional captains who sold the FOs down the river so they could make 6 figures. Never mind mainline labor who allowed the scope concessions. It's all the fault of those regional FOs who took the job with less than 1000 hrs who won't stand up for what they're worth and just quit.
It really is a ridiculous and shallow argument.
04-13-2011, 08:14 AM
#154
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
They are dead accurate. I've known folks like you my whole career. They generally always end up on a very special list.
Carl
04-13-2011, 08:16 AM
#155
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Depending on where Carl works, odds are he has taken around a 40% pay cut compared to a pre-bankruptcy 747 captain.
That is shameful and I suggest this movement should start from the top. If no one bid for the 747 captain vacancy they would have to raise the rate and it would trickle down to the rest of us. (kind of like rain, or urine)
Carl stand up for yourself and show us some old school spine!
That is shameful and I suggest this movement should start from the top. If no one bid for the 747 captain vacancy they would have to raise the rate and it would trickle down to the rest of us. (kind of like rain, or urine)
Carl stand up for yourself and show us some old school spine!
Carl
04-13-2011, 09:14 AM
#156
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
...but I must say that for one who aspires to someday follow in the career progression that you have been so fortuitously blessed, I am very disappointed if you represent the seniority that we all strive to follow. As I read your posts, I try to see your view. What is so disappointing is how someone who claims to be in such a senior position, continues to diminish the hopes and wills of those that strive to be where you are.
I'm mystified as to how you could come to that conclusion. My words are meant to do just the opposite. My words have clearly stated that if your hopes and dreams reside at a major airline, you have to be careful not to do things that diminish your chances of said dream. Military aviation, Corporate aviation, Non-shed freight aviation and foreign airline aviation do not shrink the growth of the majors. RJ aviation does. It might be painful to hear if you are already employed by a regional, but those are the facts. I'm sorry.
Before constructive support can happen, there must first be honesty. Without an honest and clear understanding of your surroundings, there can be no constructive support or movement. The military is VERY big on honesty.
Did the military train you to label as "babble" words you disagree with?
I won't move on, but thanks for your concern. Re-read my posts if you think I'm trying to break down anyone's desires. Unless you're one of those people who thinks that the only path to a major is through the regionals. Then a re-read probably won't help you.
Carl
04-13-2011, 09:17 AM
#157
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You missed the point. To imply I made a blanket statement that "major pilots are destroying the industry by demanding high wages" is unfair and obviously doesn't fit the context of the thread. That style of arguing is typical of someone who is relentlessly resourceful at twisting words/meanings and effectively dilutes important concepts.
Carl
04-13-2011, 09:32 AM
#158
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Let me try again and I'll be reasonable. Not all concessions dealing with scope were given away by pilots and their reps. Sometimes courts forced concessions. But for the most part demanding what you were worth as the internet began to auction tickets to the lowest bidder was possible only at the expense of others. These pilots you loath for flying RJs for too small a wage should be flying turbo props. Unfortunately they are not because the turbo prop flying companies were given RJs that your labor group and it's reps said were OK to give them. To place blame on the guys who were happily paying their dues in turbo props is absurd. They were handed jets and a better pay scale to continue doing the same job. All they had to do was just keep showing up to work and collect a bigger paycheck.
Unfortunately those pilots eventually caught the Captainitis just like you have sitting up in the 747. They began to feel elite and that they should make their regional jet job worth staying at for the rest of their career so when contract negotiations came around they did exactly that. They bargained for what they felt they were worth but it came at the expense of others. FOs would never make over $40 an hour just so the captains could line their pockets and make over $100 an hour. They would justify such selfish behavior by saying things like "they'll upgrade so fast it won't matter" and "FOs are just using the job as a stepping stone, I'm here until I retire." Next thing you know the only way regionals can hire new pilots is by lowing minimums to 250 hrs.
The bean counters laugh all the way to the bank because they know that proud pilots are the most easily exploitable labor who will readily defecate on one another. Lorenzo and others knew it back in the day and they wrote the book on how to easily apply the formula at any airline. Elitist pilots, mysterious new Canadian and Brazilian jets, a new format of internet ticket sales, and finally 9/11 created the perfect situation for the bean counters. What kills me is you elitists are still falling for it and simply blaming other pilots! I say take some responsibility and quit giving management such wet dreams by simply blaming other pilots.
Carl
04-13-2011, 09:47 AM
#159
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Why yes, Carl, I have a question. (For the record I am not involved in the RAH issue.) How do I get an interview at YOUR airline?
I fly a turboprop. I fly people from exotic places like Victoria and College Station Texas to Houston to connect with mainline Continental/United.
I started flying for money in 1997. After a year of instructing, I challenged my coworkers: Why are we taking a pay cut to fly bigger planes with more people on board? The response was, "Because it is the way to get to the majors".
I refused to take a pay cut. I chose to fly a Caravan hauling freight making a bit more than instrucing. I was DUMB enough to think that experience would get me hired at a major.
It did not.
So, I took a job flying a 421 hauling patients. I thought that experience would be good for the mainlines.
It wasn't.
So there I was, 5500 hours, 2000 multi, and 5000 hours PIC. I was making 45K. I wanted to move to the majors. Unfortunately, I was not an ex military pilot (sorry, I was just an enlisted man). I had no problem with military pilots and aviators getting jobs before me: IMHO they earned it.
However, the military was not producing enough pilots to fill the need of the mainlines.
Unfortunately, I was not somebody's son, so Nepotism didn't help me. I was just an average Joe who worked his way up through the ranks. As a result, I got NO INTERVIEWS.
I fly a turboprop. I fly people from exotic places like Victoria and College Station Texas to Houston to connect with mainline Continental/United.
I started flying for money in 1997. After a year of instructing, I challenged my coworkers: Why are we taking a pay cut to fly bigger planes with more people on board? The response was, "Because it is the way to get to the majors".
I refused to take a pay cut. I chose to fly a Caravan hauling freight making a bit more than instrucing. I was DUMB enough to think that experience would get me hired at a major.
It did not.
So, I took a job flying a 421 hauling patients. I thought that experience would be good for the mainlines.
It wasn't.
So there I was, 5500 hours, 2000 multi, and 5000 hours PIC. I was making 45K. I wanted to move to the majors. Unfortunately, I was not an ex military pilot (sorry, I was just an enlisted man). I had no problem with military pilots and aviators getting jobs before me: IMHO they earned it.
However, the military was not producing enough pilots to fill the need of the mainlines.
Unfortunately, I was not somebody's son, so Nepotism didn't help me. I was just an average Joe who worked his way up through the ranks. As a result, I got NO INTERVIEWS.
I don't claim to be the best pilot. I do follow the rule of Safe, Legal, and Prudent. I move the goods, but refuse to jeopardize the company, the pax, or my license to make a flight. But I am infuriated when a former military guy, b#tches because we lowly civi pilots took the path of least resistance (especially because I may well have been the guy who spotted the targets for you) and your company favors prior 121 pilots.
Carl
04-13-2011, 09:56 AM
#160
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
That's the easy and unrealistic way to deal with the argument. Just like FlyJSH I was not interested in a regional airline job. I wanted to fly cargo and gain my turbine PIC at a place like Air Cargo Carriers etc and make it to the majors that way. Then I realized a regional airline that had a domicile in the town in which I already lived was having a massive recall of it's Jets for Jobs pilots and upgrade for myself could happen in about 1 yr. At the time I didn't even have the part 135 minimums so it was a golden opportunity and would pay more than I was making as a CFI just to start.
Occasionally we have Airways mainline guys on our jumpseat and more often than not they are 10+ yr FOs and they typically complain about their horrible pay and how fortunate the regional captain is to be in the left seat making close to 6 figures and how he should stay there. Then they'll talk about how if regional FOs just wouldn't take these jobs to fly for peanuts they'd all be better off.
And there it goes again projecting blame at the easiest target available. Never mind the senior regional captains who sold the FOs down the river so they could make 6 figures. Never mind mainline labor who allowed the scope concessions. It's all the fault of those regional FOs who took the job with less than 1000 hrs who won't stand up for what they're worth and just quit.
It really is a ridiculous and shallow argument.
Occasionally we have Airways mainline guys on our jumpseat and more often than not they are 10+ yr FOs and they typically complain about their horrible pay and how fortunate the regional captain is to be in the left seat making close to 6 figures and how he should stay there. Then they'll talk about how if regional FOs just wouldn't take these jobs to fly for peanuts they'd all be better off.
And there it goes again projecting blame at the easiest target available. Never mind the senior regional captains who sold the FOs down the river so they could make 6 figures. Never mind mainline labor who allowed the scope concessions. It's all the fault of those regional FOs who took the job with less than 1000 hrs who won't stand up for what they're worth and just quit.
It really is a ridiculous and shallow argument.
RJ flying is shrinking the majors. If your dream is to fly for a major, then flying for an RJ airline shrinks the chances of your getting an interview. If your dream is to fly for an operation other than a major, then flying for an RJ airline is a great way to hire on with very low time, and build your time and experience.
The above is not arguable. It's clear that you hate hearing it, but it is fact.
Carl
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