Re: RAH

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04-12-2011, 04:13 PM

#131

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jayme

...Once you did, market forces and human nature took over and you have the mess we see now. Human nature is such that pilots will NEVER sacrafice their jobs so YOU can have more leverage, or so they might have a slightly better chance of moving to mainline. They would rather keep making a little money and gaining the hours they need to move on. That's what YOU don't get. Now tell me what I don't get.

What you don't get is that you're only speaking for you. I don't believe the average regional pilot is as hateful, venal and utterly self-interested as you. This might be your view of humanity, but it's really just a view of the animal kingdom...and sadly, you.

Carl

04-12-2011, 04:58 PM

#132

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jayme

By definition, market rates will be just enough to attract qualified candidates. If you think there is some economic force that will push wages higher, i'd love to hear about it.

200 hours total time is not qualified. 500 hours total time is not qualified. That's just one hole in your "argument."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayme

You and your generation created this economic environment when you ****ed away scope protection.

Wrong again. We started a process that led to where we are now by caving in to fear tactics. The environment has continued and has been nurtured by people like you who believe you're already being paid fairly because they are based on your view of "market forces."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayme

Expecting an entire generation of pilots to give up their aspirations to fix your mistakes is foolish.

Nobody here is expecting anyone to give up on their aspirations. Just trying to give you a spine and demand a worthy pay scale and work rules. Except in your case...since you are just fine with your market forces based conditions.

Carl

04-12-2011, 05:08 PM

#133

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jayme

Oh, and I get the above. The difference between you and me is that I understand market forces ensure exactly that will happen. I just blame you for creating these market conditions in the first place.

This is what you have to do, rather than face your own cowardice in remaining in a high responsibility job for McDonald's wages.

Same thing happened in 1982 with the American B-scale. All the prospective B-scale pilots begged to hired even though American made it clear they would never achieve A-scale wages. What happened after these prospective pilots were hired? They were furious at the A-scale pilots for creating this condition that forced them to take these B-scale jobs.

You're to blame for staying where you are. You're also to blame for hoping that your actions bring the rest of the industry down to your level...as punishment for us ever caving on scope.

Carl

04-12-2011, 05:13 PM

#134

jayme

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Joined APC: Aug 2008

Posts: 181

I'm making a big fuss about this precisely because I think we are all underpaid. I just place the blame at your feet, as your generation created these market conditions. Expecting all pilots everywhere to unite in making contract flying too expensive to farm out is pie in the sky nonsense. It would be possible with one voice, but there are too many competing interests to make it happen under today's conditions.

Every one of your assumptions about me is dead wrong.

04-12-2011, 05:15 PM

#135

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugazi

Some pilots value their self-worth so much they are willing to destroy an entire industry just so they get what they feel entitled to.

This is so illustrative of what a curse the regionals are. It's not just the flying being done, and the wages at which they are being done. The real curse is these RJ managers are creating little robots that believe major pilots are destroying the industry by demanding high wages. These little robots believe that they are doing the tough job of saving the industry by staying for McDonald's wages.

Are there any RJ pilots on this site that are actually willing to strike their airline for better wages and work rules? Or have the brain transplants been complete?

Carl

04-12-2011, 05:18 PM

#136

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sticky

RAH achieved E135 to A321 rates on ONE seniority list. That is the first step to returning to pay and benefits from a generation ago.

You're right...that is the first step. Pay rates a generation ago were far less than they are now. Glad to see you set your goals so high.

Carl

04-12-2011, 05:20 PM

#137

BoilerUP

The NeverEnding Story

Joined APC: Sep 2005

Posts: 7,609

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Stop.

Has ANYBODY in this thread once said that major pilots are destroying the industry by demanding high wages?

04-12-2011, 05:20 PM

#138

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone

I am proud of the Comair guys. However, you know the sour taste in my mouth has a little bit to do with the Comair guys (DAL furlough era-karma). <--water under the bridge for now.

Now imagine if all other regionals did what the Comair guys did:
-- One,there would be no other low bidder (Rah, TSA etc) because everybody fought for a better and higher contract.

--Two, slowly but surely the contract flying would stop and the mainline airlines would grow, thus creating more mainline gigs. There would be no cost advantage for the mainlines to "farm" out their flying.

**I agree Mainline Alpa/Pilots gave away scope too easily. It will be hard work to regain it. Sometimes decisions need to be thought out 20 steps ahead of the outcome. I am sure with the relief of scope, no one imagined the outcome to be like it is today.

Ten

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This! +1

Carl

04-12-2011, 05:27 PM

#139

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jayme

The reason pay is/was good at some sirlines is because of strong unions with scope protection. Once that goes away you go to market rates.

Totally incorrect and typical of a new hire who thinks they know everything. The ONLY reason pay was good at some airlines is because the pilots were willing to actually shut their airline down completely and force management to negotiate fairly for wages. This in combination with the majority of pilots unwilling to fly struck work allowed the high wages we used to enjoy.

If you are really the spokesperson for the new generation of RJ pilots, you'll never get high wages...because you're too cowardly to fight for them at YOUR airline.

Carl