Hornet Bum

The Marines and Navy will guarantee you a pilot slot if you qualify. Its called a flight contract and guarantees you will pilot something. It will get you to Pensacola and up to you to earn the Fixed Wing pipeline. No matter what you get, everyone seems to love it. Talk to an Officer recruiter or ROTC Officer. If they tell you to take a WSO/NFO contract and to switch to Pilot later, RUN!!! Very few actually get to transition and it takes several years to be eligible. Oh yeah, 10+ year commitment. Good Luck.

tye05

Hacker & Scambo,
Your numbers are great. My statement was my class lost 50%, not UPT as a whole in FY88. Even if you look at the number in the last chart you see the washout was about 20ish% from FY69 through FY91, when we started the conversion to the T-1/T-38 dual track system. It took several years to make the conversion and get T-1s to all UPT bases. About FY91 you see the numbers fall off. I contend/suggest this is due to the dual track system which allowed individuals who may have washed out in the T-38 program a better opportunity to graduate. My point is at guys who are getting UAVs may not have graduated under the old system. Sorry to be blunt but that is the way I see it.

Crewdawg,
Prior to about FY91 a UPT class had two flights with a class starting every 14 weeks. (30ish folks per flight / 60ish per class) About the time the T-1 came on line, it changed to one flight per class starting about every 7 weeks. That is why my class size seems so large to you. sts

Cheers T5

Elvis90

The reason the Air Force went to Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training was due to money, and the cost of maintaining and replacing the T-38. We really didn't have enough T-38s to do the job in the future, causing the AF to buy the T-1. T-38s have been modified with new engines and a glass cockpit to make it last possibly up to 2025 when a replacement will have to be found, probably at a cost of $30M each.

Training costs of a guy going through T-38s is much higher than those going through the T-1 program.

As I recall, a lot of people failed in the T-38 due to difficulties in safely landing the airplane, although the higher washout rate was in the T-37. When I taught SUPT in the T-37 from 96-99, our first year attrition in Phase II was 22% at Columbus AFB.

Not having a "universal pilot graduate" from UPT has caused some problems over the years in the USAF.

Washout rate in my class in 1991 was about 20-25%, mostly in T-37s.

Washout rates really vary with the needs of the Air Force...a Wing Commander can reinstate a failing student pilot as many times as he want if the numbers require it, but it really doesn't help the follow-on units and will likely result in an Flying Evaluation Board for that particular SUPT graduate.

UAV's are the future for the AF...kind of like the Army transitioning from a horse cavalry to tanks...everyone loved the centuries-old tradition of the cavalry charge on horseback, but they were no match for tanks and tactics changed with technological advancements.

tye05

Elvis, Agreed the UAV is the way of the future. I think everyone needs to remember the needs of Air Force out weight the needs of the individual. You are an officer first, and you signed on the dotted line to serve your country. If you don't get what you want, sorry, but you are a grown up so deal with it. Like I said I have a few friends flying UAVs and love it.
Cheer T5

Sputnik

"Almost" being the key word. In early 90's (when I graduated), it went down to 225 slots/year, out of the approx 600 pilot qualified per class for the classes of 93 and 95. After that the Academy stopped advertising "gaurenteed" slots.

I looked at the FAQ you attached and highlighted a few important qualifiers.


Will I have an opportunity to become a pilot or navigator?
Yes. While at the Academy, cadets obtain a solid background in all phases of aviation. All male and female cadets who meet the physical qualifications are considered for flying training and may be selected to fill available openings.


I'm splitting hairs somewhat but it was and remains an extrememly touchy subject for grads of my vintage. However, the Academy has always been the surest route to UPT, assuming you graduated. And I'm guessing that was your point.

I think the "floodgates" remarks I'm seeing are....who knows. I know a lot of ****ed off folks that swore they'd get out, then stayed. For a variety of reasons. I also know a lot who did get out, many of whom then came back in, also for a variety of reasons.

As for manning, I'm not smart enough to figure it out, I've seen more swings than I can count. What surprises me is how quickly the pendulum has been swinging lately. Seems like it used to take 5 years to go from wildly overmanned to wildly undermanned or vice versa, now it seems to take only a year or so. VSP was only a few years ago. Followed soon thereafter by rated recall. Followed six months later with a RIF (non rated) and a SERB (including rated).

Far as the RPA thing goes, I'm currently teaching at the zoo and ask at the beginning of the semester what everyone wants to do. About 10-20% of each class mentions RPAs as their desired career path. I was pretty shocked to hear that (and then a little proud--they are good kids).

Apologies for total thread drift.

Fishfreighter

Yep. That's an old trick they used back in the '70s too. "Show 'em your serious and apply for both," they say. DON'T DO IT. If you want to be a pilot, apply for pilot ONLY.

They're just trying to fill quotas.

Elvis90

Sputnik, I'm sure the good kids you teach there help you put life into perspective.

I worked at the Pentagon for 3 years in the Air Staff Division responsible for rated manning and training. Because it takes 5 years or so and millions of dollars to train these people to an experienced level it creates a lag...a decision is made in year 1 and by year 5 we feel the effects of it.

Like Tye said, the needs of the AF and national defense have to come first, and rightfully so.

Delta's going to experience some issues soon with respect to training: Retire hundreds of pilots, train hundreds of current pilots in new airplanes to backfill those who retired, AND train up to 800 new hire pilots. The issue becomes the capacity of the training pipeline.

Sorry for my thread drift as well.

Sputnik

I get that part. Well, not sure "get" is the right word. What eludes me is how many times it has changed back and forth in the last five years.

forgot to bid

It wouldn't be first hand knowledge but rather coming from a story like this one below. I hear it all of the time from guys I fly with but I have no idea if it's true, you do probably know however. So maybe the numbers are true about who's getting trained but maybe it's not the full picture? I mean it doesn't mention flying cargo, C130s or refuelers. The more interesting question would be what is the ratio of drones to planes for first assignments (lingo help here)?

Air Force to train more on drones - USATODAY.com

WASHINGTON — The Air Force will train more drone operators than fighter and bomber pilots combined for the first time this year, signaling a fundamental shift for the 61-year-old service, records and interviews with top officials show.

The growing ranks of drone operators mark a turning point for the Air Force as it looks to a future that relies increasingly on unmanned aircraft. Over the next few decades, the Air Force plans to develop drones that would serve as fighters, bombers and tankers, the heart of its manned fleet, according to its Unmanned System Update. The document says piloted aircraft will be used in concert with drones....

...The Air Force will train 240 pilots to fly Predator and Reaper drones compared with 214 fighter and bomber pilots for the budget year that ends in September. Overall, there are 550 drone pilots compared with 3,700 fighter and 900 bomber pilots. The current emphasis for drones reflects the need for persistent, eye-in-the-sky surveillance to track and kill insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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I will say this, being an FO at a Major allows me to fly with a lot of retired USAF/USN pilots... and occasionally USMC... and a lot of their kids are in military pilot training. It's interesting to hear. From the USN guy's I hear a lot about helicopters. USAF it's a lot about UAVs. One guy I flew with his son was in the midst of T38 training when they suspended training and he was sent to UAV's. Didn't want to do it but he likes it now and was promised a real airplane on the next assignment. Of course I flew with a guy whose kid got C130s and was so mad because he deserved fighters. I thought to myself, go talk to the guy whose kid got a UAV.

USCG, this one I know that there was a program from off the street to pilot without the boat time. I had a buddy now here at DAL that was trying to become a USCG pilot. The program, at least 3 years ago, was very limited in slots. I took a tour with him of the USCG facility at LAX, it was pretty damn cool.

I'd love to fly helicopters in the USCG. I'm going to shoot him an email and see if he can't give me some info on his thoughts. FWIW, smart guy, good pilot and good attitude and he was hired here at DAL at I think 26 years old.

forgot to bid

What school are you at?

FWIW, soloed on 16th birthday, private on 17th, instrument while 17, commercial at 18, CFI at 18 and CFII at 19... now hang on there is a point to that. After that I taught at a Major University... national champions btw... and graduated (with a business degree fwiw) I went to the regionals. I did some corporate about 5-6 years in but was hired in 08 at Delta. Probably wouldn't have been any sooner if I had stayed at the regional.

My roommate at said University, which is still celebrating Monday night, interned at Delta. He got his private and instrument at school, got an Aerospace Engineering degree, HAD A BLAST in college, went to ALL ATP in 01. Hiring stopped of course for a while there but I think it was in 02 or early 03 he left ATP with 1000 TT and 800 ME and went to CHQ and then was one of the early Captains on the E170 and then at Delta in the first classes in 07. So minus 2001 issues in the industry he was on a very fast track. In fact I think he made E170 Captain a year after I finally was able to hold E145 Captain.

So, I started way before him, even did some of his private/instrument training and he's a 600 or 800 numbers senior to me here at DAL and the only reason I got an interview. Which is kind of funny because the Captain who did my IOE on the Brasilia at Coex is junior to me at Delta. See how this works? It's just messy and all about the timing.

So all that to say, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat, be a nice guy and make friends not enemies along the way, enjoy what you do while you do it even if it sucks and I really highly recommend internships AT A MAJOR AIRLINE. Being an internal hire is great stuff, also knew a pilot 3 years from graduation to Delta, 1 year on the 727 panel and then 757 FO and then 9/11 hit.

And if you want to be a military pilot, keep asking these guys questions.