The AirTran Pilots' Windfall and SLI
01-19-2011, 12:49 PM
#441
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
I bet the house that the above WILL hold MORE weight infront of an Arbitrator(s) Panel than the weak-d*** "he said/she said" rolling through this thread.
Good Luck.
01-19-2011, 12:59 PM
#442
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
Not true. Pilots on this board can read for themselves, they don't need you to give them the executive summary.
On the contrary, I find most of the post on this board are by non-SWA/AT pilots who can only repeat the mantra of "RELATIVE SENIORITY".
Reminds me of the scene in Life of Brian, where the crowd chants in unison,"Yes, we must think for ourselves, we must be individuals."
Like you
And I'm sure that would make you happy. Oh wait, you do have a dog in this fight! YOUR EGO.
Look here Orville Redenbacker, you're the main one stoking up the fire. Putting words in everyone's mouth and assuming you know everyone's motivations. Let them read for themselves.
Go take your real dog for a walk, he's feeling negleted.
On the contrary, I find most of the post on this board are by non-SWA/AT pilots who can only repeat the mantra of "RELATIVE SENIORITY".
Reminds me of the scene in Life of Brian, where the crowd chants in unison,"Yes, we must think for ourselves, we must be individuals."
Like you
And I'm sure that would make you happy. Oh wait, you do have a dog in this fight! YOUR EGO.
Look here Orville Redenbacker, you're the main one stoking up the fire. Putting words in everyone's mouth and assuming you know everyone's motivations. Let them read for themselves.
Go take your real dog for a walk, he's feeling negleted.
With a name, call sign, handle, nickname like 1seat1engine...you give yourself little credibility due to the fact only a new guy fresh from a "1seat1engine" would put that up on a civilian major airline board. A lot of the folks on this board have been in the airline biz for over 20 years...so you won't be teaching any of them much about mergers! Now if you changed your handle, call sign, thingy to something like "SWAOldTimer" or something like that...you might fool some folks into listening to your opinion. BTW...you are gonna need some meds if you have your heart set on a w2 integration...but that is just my opinion! good luck, I am sure you will enjoy flying with all the Tranny guys/gals...seem to be a great bunch of folks just like SWA.
01-19-2011, 01:08 PM
#443
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
The answer to your question is simple. The law regarding airlines mergers has changed because of the AMR-TWA merger. The list will go to arbitration. Before this law change SWA could have dictated a merger policy. They can no longer do that.
Each side will get a chance to present all the facts as they see them and feel they are relevant. The arbitrator will decide how to weight those facts and produce a list. SWA airlines will without a doubt be able to make a case they were the preferred place for a pilot to work. Airtran on the other hand will have the advantage of a very experienced merger and legal team that has been through this type of thing before and has a working relationship with the arbitrators and NMB.
The list will be produced and then everyone can complain on both sides!
Each side will get a chance to present all the facts as they see them and feel they are relevant. The arbitrator will decide how to weight those facts and produce a list. SWA airlines will without a doubt be able to make a case they were the preferred place for a pilot to work. Airtran on the other hand will have the advantage of a very experienced merger and legal team that has been through this type of thing before and has a working relationship with the arbitrators and NMB.
The list will be produced and then everyone can complain on both sides!
01-19-2011, 08:07 PM
#445
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Ok, granted this is page 42 of a ridiculous thread that is going nowhere, but lets try and remember where it all started. The precedent set in a recent arbitrators decision. Everyone keeps talking about precedents set, yet they only want to use the precedent that supports their argument. I in no way believe that an arbitrators decision will exactly mirror this one, but I can see more similarities in this case than I can between DAL-NW or US-AW. In the end no one will ask me, so what does my opinion matter. And certainly no one will ask pilots from other airlines what they think should happen with the SLI. So my question is why is everyone that does not work for either company so interested in this subject? I honestly can't remember looking at any threads centered around integrations of other companies. Why is this so interesting to parties not directly involved? Pinnacle-Mesaba-Colgan are going through an interesting SLI, are you all following that also? Here is the relevant portion thrown out by the original poster:
..."It is clear, when one considers routes flown, cities serviced, the two carriers' relative financial condition, fleet size and fleet type, that the equities weigh so heavily on the side of the Chautauqua Pilots as to virtually obliterate any alleged equities that the Shuttle America Pilots claim they bring to the merger."
"Simply stated, the rates of pay, rules and working conditions in the Chautauqua Pilots' collective bargaining agreement, are far superior to those found in the Shuttle America Pilots' collective bargaining agreement. As a result of the acquisition Shuttle America Pilots will be the beneficiaries of the superior rates of pay, rules and working conditions found in the Chautauqua Pilots collective bargaining agreement."
"A date of hire seniority integration, while it might not significantly dilute the seniority of the Chautauqua Pilots, would, to some extent, constitute a WINDFALL BENEFIT for the Shuttle America Pilots."
"This Arbitrator agrees that the "reasonable" career expectations of the two pilot groups is the benchmark for determining what is fair and equitable in this case."
"On this basis alone, the integration of Shuttle America Pilots into the Chautauqua operation has substantially increased career expectation for the Shuttle America Pilots, far beyond what they could have reasonably expected when they "signed on" as pilots for Shuttle America."...
..."It is clear, when one considers routes flown, cities serviced, the two carriers' relative financial condition, fleet size and fleet type, that the equities weigh so heavily on the side of the Chautauqua Pilots as to virtually obliterate any alleged equities that the Shuttle America Pilots claim they bring to the merger."
"Simply stated, the rates of pay, rules and working conditions in the Chautauqua Pilots' collective bargaining agreement, are far superior to those found in the Shuttle America Pilots' collective bargaining agreement. As a result of the acquisition Shuttle America Pilots will be the beneficiaries of the superior rates of pay, rules and working conditions found in the Chautauqua Pilots collective bargaining agreement."
"A date of hire seniority integration, while it might not significantly dilute the seniority of the Chautauqua Pilots, would, to some extent, constitute a WINDFALL BENEFIT for the Shuttle America Pilots."
"This Arbitrator agrees that the "reasonable" career expectations of the two pilot groups is the benchmark for determining what is fair and equitable in this case."
"On this basis alone, the integration of Shuttle America Pilots into the Chautauqua operation has substantially increased career expectation for the Shuttle America Pilots, far beyond what they could have reasonably expected when they "signed on" as pilots for Shuttle America."...
In the DL/NW case, the arbitrators did not accept date of hire as they said it would be an unbalanced list. They did not then staple the NW pilots to the bottom of the DL list. They came up with another way to deal with longevity issues (pull and plug). The problem with SLI issues is that each side tries to read too much into portions of decisions from previous cases and take some fragment of an opinion to prove their preconceived notions of fairness. It reminds of the movie reviews, a reviewer says "Die Hard XXIV is an epic failure and spectacular bore of a movie." What do you see in the advertisement: "Die Hard XXIV....epic....spectacular". Taking a small fragment that mentions "windfall" and then extrapolating that out to say "hey swa needs to staple aai because of a windfall" is just self delusion.
The biggest problem with the US Air merger is that one group allowed themselves to develop outsized expectations over the final list. When those were not met, they blew a gasket and have shot themselves in the foot, head, heart, legs, and every other body part since then. I think SWA is a great company with a great culture and great pilots. I would hate to see that all go to hell because one group of pilots created outsized expectations for themselves.
AAI is not going to get stapled and it will not be close to a staple. I also expect that the number one AAI pilot will be somewhat below the number one SWA pilot due to SWA's better contract and greater longevity. A junior SWA pilot's career will only get better because of this merger because his company would have a hard time surviving long term without the assets that AAI brings in. That is why Gary Kelly bought them in the first place. It wasn't because he was bored last Tuesday and had nothing else to do. Listen to what SWA management has been saying for the last three years and you will understand what I am saying. SWA cannot stay the way it is and survive, unless they slash benefits and pay back to startup levels. Their company has to adapt to survive. This is how they are adapting and that is the benefit that a junior SWA copilot gets from this merger.
Not a SWA hater, but an admirer. Your airline will now be two groups joined as one. The sooner you get on that page the better your career will be in the future. Fighting each other to the death only creates pain for everyone.
01-19-2011, 08:14 PM
#446
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,249
This has to be one of the dumbest statements I have read on any forum. Step away rom the pipe buddy. Have you ever seen the show intervention you may need one?
01-19-2011, 08:46 PM
#447
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: C-172 Captain
Posts: 17
Hey Mulcher, were you really a Space Shuttle Commander? Which STS were you on?
01-19-2011, 09:12 PM
#448
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
I think the big reason why you are getting hazed is partly because of your avatar name, or handle, or call sign...whatever it is called. With a name, call sign, handle, nickname like 1seat1engine...you give yourself little credibility due to the fact only a new guy fresh from a "1seat1engine" would put that up on a civilian major airline board.
It all adds up, if you think about it.
Sadly, the airlines are a seniority driven system, much to the chagrin of the "Top Guns" among us.
Perhaps he should have gone to Copa or India where he could have gotten hired as a Captain. Oh, I forgot, you have to have airline experience to get that gig. Oh well....
01-19-2011, 09:49 PM
#449
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
01-19-2011, 10:37 PM
#450
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Oh, I see - the Delta/NWA merger SLI was not about pay, it was about equipment size. No, not about career earnings by determining the large body slots at each company, not about determining which company was more financially viable, not about pay scales, definitely not about an acquisiton, not about a healthier company taking the older more senior lower paid pilots at another company likely to never fully come out of bankruptcy, nope that didn't figure into any of it.
This board is Delta Central. Moderators are Delta (some are okay), the vast majority of posters are Delta, and to be honest Delta doesn't like Southwest too much so they'll say anything that they can to antagonize and insult you under the moderated guise of "advancing a discussion."
If you want to have a real discussion with an AirTran pilot over SLI, invite them over for a few beers to talk about it. They're mostly top notch people, and even if their MEC wreaks havoc all of the way to an arbitrator, we have top notch people that can push as hard as needed if push comes to shove.
Relax - these guys don't even know how the United/Continental thing is going to work out. Heck, last time I checked, the DAL/NWA thing had errors in it. ALPA is beating it's chest, and whimpering out a lousy deal on the 70 seat jets. ALPA is nothing to fear.
I'm going to bed. I may stoop to post on this board again in another 3 months.
PS last month I earned more than $20,000+ as an FO.
Any of you legacy captains earn more than that?
This board is Delta Central. Moderators are Delta (some are okay), the vast majority of posters are Delta, and to be honest Delta doesn't like Southwest too much so they'll say anything that they can to antagonize and insult you under the moderated guise of "advancing a discussion."
If you want to have a real discussion with an AirTran pilot over SLI, invite them over for a few beers to talk about it. They're mostly top notch people, and even if their MEC wreaks havoc all of the way to an arbitrator, we have top notch people that can push as hard as needed if push comes to shove.
Relax - these guys don't even know how the United/Continental thing is going to work out. Heck, last time I checked, the DAL/NWA thing had errors in it. ALPA is beating it's chest, and whimpering out a lousy deal on the 70 seat jets. ALPA is nothing to fear.
I'm going to bed. I may stoop to post on this board again in another 3 months.
PS last month I earned more than $20,000+ as an FO.
Any of you legacy captains earn more than that?
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