newKnow

Bwi,

I'll listen all day long. But, I don't see any post on this thread that points to how (outside of a possible higher retirement rate) pre-SWA pilots will be hurt financially.

Getting your feelings hurt because someone who got hired after you got put ahead of you on a seniority list does not count as financial harm. Therapist costs and extra beer money (for crying in) don't count.

I'm fun to fly with, too.


New K

P.S. Aren't there a lot of ex-Eastern and ex-Delta pilots, who are due to retire soon, at Air Tran now? They might even challenge your increased retirement claim. Do you have the stats of a comparison of the retirements.

80ktsClamp

From the retirement data posted on this site, Airtran and WN are virtual equals as far as % of the list retiring over time.... Current date to 50% is a year or 2 at the most different between the two. BOTH are in the very late 2020's. The fact is that significant retirement progression isn't a part of either one of the companies for nearly another 20 years.

newKnow

80,

That can't be true. One of the party's said that they had higher retirement rates (super-premium) and we know no one ever embellishes their SLI case.

80ktsClamp

Well, WN does have super premium payrates.


I actually do think that we will see some sort of a nod to the large discrepancy of pay between the two companies in the SLI, and like the DL list not quite straight relative. After all, I shifted a quarter % off of straight relative and you shifted a full several % off of the same. This wasn't due to pay, but due to equipment differences between the carriers as well as the nod to greater retirements on the NW side.

I tried to take a very pragmatic approach to our SLI and build my expectations off of that... not the proposed list that DALPA put out nor the NWALPA list, both of which were simple political posturing. What I expected to see after looking at it from that perspective is virtually identical to what the arbiter awarded.

Those on the WN/FL side that do not want to have an ugly suprise should do the same.

newKnow

80,

I think equipment differences make a relative seniority argument more meaningful. Both sides should adjust their expectations, or at least be prepared for the arbitrator to take their "side" completely. They tend to do something to split the difference. Unfortunately, pragmatic is not a word that describes much when SLI discussions are at hand.

moosedawg

I'm not saying that those FO's should immediately be made Captains at the expense of Air Tran guys at all sir. If you can't imagine that it would be tough yanking gear for someone that has six or seven years at their airline and gets to be a Captain at your airline before you, even though you've been there longer, then I'd say you aren't human. I'm not saying they won't do their job, I'm just saying the emotions associated with this scenario are natural. Even though you say that with relative seniority our guys lose nothing, that is not exactly correct. The larger the seniority list, the more aircraft it takes to generate movement on that seniority list, so even keeping the same relative seniority, senior FO's here will see the time to upgrade lengthen for every AT guy that comes in above them. Lets face facts. The FO's at both airlines have the most to lose because both groups will see their time to upgrade lengthened, not shortened by this SLI, no matter what. That is also why Captains at both airlines will do whatever it takes to hold onto their seats, and it exactly the reason why BOTH groups would have no problems taking Captain seats from the other.

27 driver

Really, have you looked at the history of SWA's pay rates. They have changed quite a bit. Mostly post 2001.

Bwipilot

I guess the morons are out again so I'll have to make another post. SWA pilots expectations pre merger: make a good chunk of change. AAI pilots expectations pre merger: make a smaller chunk of change.

Too many pilots get hung up on seat and size. Without going to a size analogy, it's ridiculous to state that flying a big airplane is worth more if you're getting paid less.

If you equated the pay scales of each seniority list to the average pay for an airplane, the SWA pilots would fall into the 767/777 category. The AAI pilots would've fallen into the small narrow body category. Hence, SWA pilots are bring 5700 wide body seats to the merger in terms of pay--that's the bottom line.

Zeroto4

Moose,

Don't you think the SWA FO's will upgrade faster than the AT FO's? After all, the merger brings growth aircraft to the company, not just the replacement aircraft currently on SWA's order book. The AT FO's are the ones whose upgrade will be delayed because "their" seats (aircraft on order) will be diluted by being spread over a larger FO pool at the combined company. Or am I not seeing the big picture?

tsquare

Wow.... just when I thought it couldn't get any better!