Bluedriver

And by the way, your long post from blueTRUTHpilots sure makes it all clear doesn't it?

hyperboy

This is incorrect. Please be honest on here. If you had a CBA it is correct for the most part but everything can be on the table. They start with a blank piece of paper and you use negotiating capital to negotiate things for the new CBA. Plenty will be gone from what we have now. It does not happen in one CBA....

alvrb211

There's no "plenty" left to take from. What little there was has already been taken away under the DR!


This Pilot group has been left wanting. That's the price you pay for being stick and rudder men without business acumen.


No wonder other Pilots groups scratch their heads at this bunch!


JJ

benzoate

I can help the DR supporters who don't read so good.

Bluetruthpilots and those working for the union are trying to make sure that JetBlue pilots understand JetBlue management can and will do what ever it wants because the pilot group does not have a CBA.

You as a pilot have no recourse. You as a pilot group have no recourse.

JetBlue pilots have zero ability to force JetBlue to abide by anything.

I has taken over 2 years for an arbitrator to agree the pilot group was able to act together in a dispute regarding 3A.

benzoate

Wow. Talk about missing the big picture.


Jetblue doesn't need to allow outsourcing in the "traditional sense" because the pro-company PVC gave Jetblue permission to start and alter ego airline. One which can fly 320's. I'm not worried about 50 seaters.

Sematics!

hyperboy

It's funny that what you wrote had nothing to do with my post. Matter of fact you did not even have an opinion to my actual post. I was correcting erroneous information and yet again you attack? That is all I was doing? Why? Do you not have an opinion to my post of so then why even respond? Geez....

Kellwolf

So, using our PEAs as a starting point (since that's what we have as a CBA), what would be gone? Most of the things other carriers have in their CBAs don't exist in our PEAs. They exist in company manuals that could be changed tomorrow without any input from the PVC. I wouldn't say we'd start with a "blank sheet of paper." We'd start with the PEAs and what current rules we have. What would the company have us give up to solidify health care? Max duty day? It's already FAR limited. Minimum rest? Same. Premium pay? For the right benefit/pay mix, I'd agree to eliminating premium pay. I think it's this thread I already ran the math on that one. Honestly, we could take the current PEAs, the current FSM, tweak a couple of issues, and we'd have a CBA. We wouldn't have to start with a blank sheet of paper.

Really, they only things they could pull back on us at this point would be profit sharing, retirement and wages. All of those they themselves know have to increase if they want to attract and retain. You're correct that "everything is on the table," but that doesn't necessarily mean both sides agree to what the other side proposes. Out of curiosity, how many airline negotiations have you been through? I was pretty involved in the process at my last carrier, and it did drag out for YEARS. We even went through one TA that was voted down before we finally got a decent agreement.

That's my take on it. What's yours? What do YOU think we'd have to give up in order to make the strides we need to pull even with our peers?

Bluedriver

You're hopeless. The guy said that JetBlue pilots have allowed outsourcing up to 70 seats.

Quote the part of the PEA or 5 documents that expressly allows JB to subcontract jets up to 70 seats?

benzoate

Section 15 uses the word "or" which allows Jetblue to use up to 50 seats or 10% ASM's. Because of this Jetblue can outsource flying to 70 seats by the additional use of ownership up to 30%. So, YES, Jetblue can outsource up to 70 seats.

You are trying to compare the PEA to a CBA. A CBA would restrict the 70 seats or delineate the method for bringing them on. The PEA does not and therefore your apples to oranges comparison easily allows for the use of 70 seaters.


This myopic view of the situation exemplifies the issues at hand and going forward.

You keep arguing 70 seats and when the alter-ego airline arrives we'll revisit 70 seats and see if it is still pertinent.

Kellwolf

I think it's this section he's talking about:

The way I read that is the Airline could start another carrier and the seniority lists could be kept separate IF it was operating 49 seats or less (the 50 seats or more eliminated 50 seaters) or (and this is the kicker I would imagine), the total annual ASMs for the other carrier does not exceed 10% of the Airline's annual ASMs. So, as long as the other carrier didn't fly more than 10% of jetBlue's ASMs, they could keep the airlines separate.

Like I said, this is how I read it, YMMV. The only way to actually put it to the test is to see it happen and watch how the courtroom battle unfolds. My question is, though, who would pay for the lawyers on the pilots' side?