"Latest and Greatest" about jetBlue
05-02-2012, 08:07 AM
#2571
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
If ever B6 goes union the company changes hands in 12 months or less and mergers/acquisitions wrap up soon thereafter. Pure unadulterated financial inevitability. B6 is a low margins domestic carrier - fighting to keep alive in the leaner and meaner world of people moving. The ex-fuel CASM is the deal breaker. With cost structures nuked and dictated by unions, the model at JetBlue is dead. Leadership leaves and it won't even be B6 signing the company away in less than a year - it will be hedgefund, etc.
All union wannabe's will dispute this and are clearly F*ckn either ignorant and so self motivated by a few percentage points they'll fly the equivalent of a good plane into the ground. That's what a union at B6 will factually accomplish.
If B6 is behind in retirement and benefits suck it up. It's the only thing keep you employed. Stay employed on just a little bit less than everyone else and stay employed a lot longer. Go for the proverbial airline "parity +" b/c you are so great and kiss your airline goodbye. How did big contractual gains and supped up benefits work up to this point for many? Most at B6 are from other carriers who failed at the same attempt.
If the non union pilots at JetBlue continued with their intelligence they'd sit and wait it out and be happy to have jobs solidly good jobs. If the cost structure is "handed over" to the ALPA and it's national telling the popularity contest MEC's what to do you're in the worst career changer of your life.
Anyone who tells you unions are the answer at B6 usually follow very little other than their reflections in the window as they head to the next gate.
This is for the people at JetBlue who don't always tell the union supporters to go take a walk. And who by the way are the large majority last time we all checked. =)
All union wannabe's will dispute this and are clearly F*ckn either ignorant and so self motivated by a few percentage points they'll fly the equivalent of a good plane into the ground. That's what a union at B6 will factually accomplish.
If B6 is behind in retirement and benefits suck it up. It's the only thing keep you employed. Stay employed on just a little bit less than everyone else and stay employed a lot longer. Go for the proverbial airline "parity +" b/c you are so great and kiss your airline goodbye. How did big contractual gains and supped up benefits work up to this point for many? Most at B6 are from other carriers who failed at the same attempt.
If the non union pilots at JetBlue continued with their intelligence they'd sit and wait it out and be happy to have jobs solidly good jobs. If the cost structure is "handed over" to the ALPA and it's national telling the popularity contest MEC's what to do you're in the worst career changer of your life.
Anyone who tells you unions are the answer at B6 usually follow very little other than their reflections in the window as they head to the next gate.
This is for the people at JetBlue who don't always tell the union supporters to go take a walk. And who by the way are the large majority last time we all checked. =)
Dripping with management, Ford & Harrison, and conservative talking points.
The irony of the assertion that if JB pilots go union, they will be swallowed up by some giant UNION airline.....
Sad if you are a pilot and actually believe this FU&^%*G CRAP.
05-02-2012, 08:41 AM
#2572
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 536
Let me try to help out Rake in a more political fashion. While I don't totally agree with him, he does make some valid points. At some point even the hard corp ALPA union supporters must admit that this industry involves paper-thin margins. The only way JetBlue survives as a stand-alone or for the long term in any fashion is to maintain a cost advantage over the competition. Why do you think Delta just gambled on a refinery? Guarantee they are going to try and squash little ole B6.
The point is, if you haven't figured it out after 10 years+ of historical proof through multiple airline bankruptcies, the legacy union model of pattern bargaining has failed. The BODs use BKs and consolidation to destroy a CBA that handcuffs a corporate vision. SWAPA is successful because they work with management for a common goal through increased pilot productivity to maintain an advantage, which by the way is rapidly dwindling.
I have heard all the ALPA counter arguments and "local MEC" rhetoric, but I am just not convinced that national will not swing B6 into the "industry leading" contract mentality that will inevitably result in the new legacy airline Bankruptcy/Merger cycle. And please all the hard corp types, don't tell me about how pilots are where we are today off the backs of the pattern bargaining sacrifice of the past. Because if you do, you just proved my point. This industry sucks and is bankrupt. In my opinion, at some point you need to work for a common goal with the company. Soo far B6 management is doing a good job.
Personally, I think a JBPA that campaigns to look out for the best interests of the pilot group, but also balances those needs with a strong corporate vision would do very well. I'm just not sure the hard right has the ability to move to the center with regard to the historical failure of pattern bargaining. Again this is just my opinion and ultimately will make absolutely no difference in the big scheme of things.
The point is, if you haven't figured it out after 10 years+ of historical proof through multiple airline bankruptcies, the legacy union model of pattern bargaining has failed. The BODs use BKs and consolidation to destroy a CBA that handcuffs a corporate vision. SWAPA is successful because they work with management for a common goal through increased pilot productivity to maintain an advantage, which by the way is rapidly dwindling.
I have heard all the ALPA counter arguments and "local MEC" rhetoric, but I am just not convinced that national will not swing B6 into the "industry leading" contract mentality that will inevitably result in the new legacy airline Bankruptcy/Merger cycle. And please all the hard corp types, don't tell me about how pilots are where we are today off the backs of the pattern bargaining sacrifice of the past. Because if you do, you just proved my point. This industry sucks and is bankrupt. In my opinion, at some point you need to work for a common goal with the company. Soo far B6 management is doing a good job.
Personally, I think a JBPA that campaigns to look out for the best interests of the pilot group, but also balances those needs with a strong corporate vision would do very well. I'm just not sure the hard right has the ability to move to the center with regard to the historical failure of pattern bargaining. Again this is just my opinion and ultimately will make absolutely no difference in the big scheme of things.
05-02-2012, 09:05 AM
#2573
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Left,Right, Left, Right,Right,Left, Right, Left
Posts: 3,150
Clear, the biggest problem with your argument is that SWAPA and SWA WORK TOGETHER, and JB doesn't want to work with it's pilots. It has been proven time and time over. I was told personally if we unionized it would be 5yrs to get a contract minimum just to prove a point to the other emp. groups. JB managment wants productivity... they just don't want to pay for it. Nothing motivates like the almighty $$$.
05-02-2012, 11:29 AM
#2574
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: B1900/R, CRJ/L, E190/R
Posts: 70
Clear, the biggest problem with your argument is that SWAPA and SWA WORK TOGETHER, and JB doesn't want to work with it's pilots. It has been proven time and time over. I was told personally if we unionized it would be 5yrs to get a contract minimum just to prove a point to the other emp. groups. JB managment wants productivity... they just don't want to pay for it. Nothing motivates like the almighty $$$.
05-02-2012, 11:46 AM
#2575
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 524
Really? It took over 5 years to negotiate a contract at my other ALPA carrier and they had no "point to prove." This isn't uncommon and happens quite often (as I'm sure you know) as it's just par for the course when it comes to negotiations. It happened because our pilots simply asked for too much which led the company to drag their swollen feet to back and forth communications that finally led to a signed CBA resulting in an outstanding 1% raise. Awesome. Perhaps our MEC sucked? Nah...we were just asking for "average...".
05-02-2012, 01:21 PM
#2576
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 28
Let me try to help out Rake in a more political fashion. While I don't totally agree with him, he does make some valid points. At some point even the hard corp ALPA union supporters must admit that this industry involves paper-thin margins. The only way JetBlue survives as a stand-alone or for the long term in any fashion is to maintain a cost advantage over the competition. Why do you think Delta just gambled on a refinery? Guarantee they are going to try and squash little ole B6.
The point is, if you haven't figured it out after 10 years+ of historical proof through multiple airline bankruptcies, the legacy union model of pattern bargaining has failed. The BODs use BKs and consolidation to destroy a CBA that handcuffs a corporate vision. SWAPA is successful because they work with management for a common goal through increased pilot productivity to maintain an advantage, which by the way is rapidly dwindling.
I have heard all the ALPA counter arguments and "local MEC" rhetoric, but I am just not convinced that national will not swing B6 into the "industry leading" contract mentality that will inevitably result in the new legacy airline Bankruptcy/Merger cycle. And please all the hard corp types, don't tell me about how pilots are where we are today off the backs of the pattern bargaining sacrifice of the past. Because if you do, you just proved my point. This industry sucks and is bankrupt. In my opinion, at some point you need to work for a common goal with the company. Soo far B6 management is doing a good job.
Personally, I think a JBPA that campaigns to look out for the best interests of the pilot group, but also balances those needs with a strong corporate vision would do very well. I'm just not sure the hard right has the ability to move to the center with regard to the historical failure of pattern bargaining. Again this is just my opinion and ultimately will make absolutely no difference in the big scheme of things.
The point is, if you haven't figured it out after 10 years+ of historical proof through multiple airline bankruptcies, the legacy union model of pattern bargaining has failed. The BODs use BKs and consolidation to destroy a CBA that handcuffs a corporate vision. SWAPA is successful because they work with management for a common goal through increased pilot productivity to maintain an advantage, which by the way is rapidly dwindling.
I have heard all the ALPA counter arguments and "local MEC" rhetoric, but I am just not convinced that national will not swing B6 into the "industry leading" contract mentality that will inevitably result in the new legacy airline Bankruptcy/Merger cycle. And please all the hard corp types, don't tell me about how pilots are where we are today off the backs of the pattern bargaining sacrifice of the past. Because if you do, you just proved my point. This industry sucks and is bankrupt. In my opinion, at some point you need to work for a common goal with the company. Soo far B6 management is doing a good job.
Personally, I think a JBPA that campaigns to look out for the best interests of the pilot group, but also balances those needs with a strong corporate vision would do very well. I'm just not sure the hard right has the ability to move to the center with regard to the historical failure of pattern bargaining. Again this is just my opinion and ultimately will make absolutely no difference in the big scheme of things.
I disagree about JBPA however. It would become radical in time. It's just the nature of the beast. I don't care if it's run by the fairy god mother - the union will devolve into the lowest common denominator when the stress hits. Look at USAPA, APA, ALPA Delta, etc etc. And it will because of the cast of characters proudly part of the JAOC. I hate to even proffer it about SWA, but they will be increasingly facing hard times ahead and don't expect their pilots to be sympathetic to what the company may ask for in return. AA/APA, USA/ALPA/USAPA proved that once you give it up, it's generally gone. Snap-back or not. Or wait forever for a judge to rule. The trust has been broken across the board after AA and 23% and USAPA. I could be wrong about SWA and I hope I am. It will prove if they really are as different as everyone says.
While a post above says that we'll take 5 years for a first contract I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that B6 won't be around then. No union guy will accept this truth - or their reply is the banal "cool we'll merged into a real pilot group with a union". It's the same lame @ss talking point.
JetBlue will start taking calls for sale and/or merger the day the vote goes 51% CBA. It is a certainty. I know I sound humble. Sorry. If you don't believe me that's cool. I might know something you don't.
05-02-2012, 03:58 PM
#2577
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 219
Not to steer off topic but has anyone gotten a response from the interviews in October and November ?
05-03-2012, 03:44 AM
#2578
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 194
If ever B6 goes union the company changes hands in 12 months or less and mergers/acquisitions wrap up soon thereafter. Pure unadulterated financial inevitability. B6 is a low margins domestic carrier - fighting to keep alive in the leaner and meaner world of people moving. The ex-fuel CASM is the deal breaker. With cost structures nuked and dictated by unions, the model at JetBlue is dead. Leadership leaves and it won't even be B6 signing the company away in less than a year - it will be hedgefund, etc.
All union wannabe's will dispute this and are clearly F*ckn either ignorant and so self motivated by a few percentage points they'll fly the equivalent of a good plane into the ground. That's what a union at B6 will factually accomplish.
If B6 is behind in retirement and benefits suck it up. It's the only thing keep you employed. Stay employed on just a little bit less than everyone else and stay employed a lot longer. Go for the proverbial airline "parity +" b/c you are so great and kiss your airline goodbye. How did big contractual gains and supped up benefits work up to this point for many? Most at B6 are from other carriers who failed at the same attempt.
If the non union pilots at JetBlue continued with their intelligence they'd sit and wait it out and be happy to have jobs solidly good jobs. If the cost structure is "handed over" to the ALPA and it's national telling the popularity contest MEC's what to do you're in the worst career changer of your life.
Anyone who tells you unions are the answer at B6 usually follow very little other than their reflections in the window as they head to the next gate.
This is for the people at JetBlue who don't always tell the union supporters to go take a walk. And who by the way are the large majority last time we all checked. =)
All union wannabe's will dispute this and are clearly F*ckn either ignorant and so self motivated by a few percentage points they'll fly the equivalent of a good plane into the ground. That's what a union at B6 will factually accomplish.
If B6 is behind in retirement and benefits suck it up. It's the only thing keep you employed. Stay employed on just a little bit less than everyone else and stay employed a lot longer. Go for the proverbial airline "parity +" b/c you are so great and kiss your airline goodbye. How did big contractual gains and supped up benefits work up to this point for many? Most at B6 are from other carriers who failed at the same attempt.
If the non union pilots at JetBlue continued with their intelligence they'd sit and wait it out and be happy to have jobs solidly good jobs. If the cost structure is "handed over" to the ALPA and it's national telling the popularity contest MEC's what to do you're in the worst career changer of your life.
Anyone who tells you unions are the answer at B6 usually follow very little other than their reflections in the window as they head to the next gate.
This is for the people at JetBlue who don't always tell the union supporters to go take a walk. And who by the way are the large majority last time we all checked. =)
I love it. This my friends is good comedy. Ignorance doesn't get much better than this. Wow. Well written comedic skit.
05-03-2012, 05:16 AM
#2579
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
Originally Posted by Rake222 
If ever B6 goes union the company changes hands in 12 months or less and mergers/acquisitions wrap up soon thereafter. Pure unadulterated financial inevitability. B6 is a low margins domestic carrier - fighting to keep alive in the leaner and meaner world of people moving. The ex-fuel CASM is the deal breaker. With cost structures nuked and dictated by unions, the model at JetBlue is dead. Leadership leaves and it won't even be B6 signing the company away in less than a year - it will be hedgefund, etc.
All union wannabe's will dispute this and are clearly F*ckn either ignorant and so self motivated by a few percentage points they'll fly the equivalent of a good plane into the ground. That's what a union at B6 will factually accomplish.
If B6 is behind in retirement and benefits suck it up. It's the only thing keep you employed. Stay employed on just a little bit less than everyone else and stay employed a lot longer. Go for the proverbial airline "parity +" b/c you are so great and kiss your airline goodbye. How did big contractual gains and supped up benefits work up to this point for many? Most at B6 are from other carriers who failed at the same attempt.
If the non union pilots at JetBlue continued with their intelligence they'd sit and wait it out and be happy to have jobs solidly good jobs. If the cost structure is "handed over" to the ALPA and it's national telling the popularity contest MEC's what to do you're in the worst career changer of your life.
Anyone who tells you unions are the answer at B6 usually follow very little other than their reflections in the window as they head to the next gate.
This is for the people at JetBlue who don't always tell the union supporters to go take a walk. And who by the way are the large majority last time we all checked. =)
Bingo. Thanks.
I disagree about JBPA however. It would become radical in time. It's just the nature of the beast. I don't care if it's run by the fairy god mother - the union will devolve into the lowest common denominator when the stress hits. Look at USAPA, APA, ALPA Delta, etc etc. And it will because of the cast of characters proudly part of the JAOC. I hate to even proffer it about SWA, but they will be increasingly facing hard times ahead and don't expect their pilots to be sympathetic to what the company may ask for in return. AA/APA, USA/ALPA/USAPA proved that once you give it up, it's generally gone. Snap-back or not. Or wait forever for a judge to rule. The trust has been broken across the board after AA and 23% and USAPA. I could be wrong about SWA and I hope I am. It will prove if they really are as different as everyone says.
While a post above says that we'll take 5 years for a first contract I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that B6 won't be around then. No union guy will accept this truth - or their reply is the banal "cool we'll merged into a real pilot group with a union". It's the same lame @ss talking point.
JetBlue will start taking calls for sale and/or merger the day the vote goes 51% CBA. It is a certainty. I know I sound humble. Sorry. If you don't believe me that's cool. I might know something you don't.[
If ever B6 goes union the company changes hands in 12 months or less and mergers/acquisitions wrap up soon thereafter. Pure unadulterated financial inevitability. B6 is a low margins domestic carrier - fighting to keep alive in the leaner and meaner world of people moving. The ex-fuel CASM is the deal breaker. With cost structures nuked and dictated by unions, the model at JetBlue is dead. Leadership leaves and it won't even be B6 signing the company away in less than a year - it will be hedgefund, etc.
All union wannabe's will dispute this and are clearly F*ckn either ignorant and so self motivated by a few percentage points they'll fly the equivalent of a good plane into the ground. That's what a union at B6 will factually accomplish.
If B6 is behind in retirement and benefits suck it up. It's the only thing keep you employed. Stay employed on just a little bit less than everyone else and stay employed a lot longer. Go for the proverbial airline "parity +" b/c you are so great and kiss your airline goodbye. How did big contractual gains and supped up benefits work up to this point for many? Most at B6 are from other carriers who failed at the same attempt.
If the non union pilots at JetBlue continued with their intelligence they'd sit and wait it out and be happy to have jobs solidly good jobs. If the cost structure is "handed over" to the ALPA and it's national telling the popularity contest MEC's what to do you're in the worst career changer of your life.
Anyone who tells you unions are the answer at B6 usually follow very little other than their reflections in the window as they head to the next gate.
This is for the people at JetBlue who don't always tell the union supporters to go take a walk. And who by the way are the large majority last time we all checked. =)
Bingo. Thanks.
I disagree about JBPA however. It would become radical in time. It's just the nature of the beast. I don't care if it's run by the fairy god mother - the union will devolve into the lowest common denominator when the stress hits. Look at USAPA, APA, ALPA Delta, etc etc. And it will because of the cast of characters proudly part of the JAOC. I hate to even proffer it about SWA, but they will be increasingly facing hard times ahead and don't expect their pilots to be sympathetic to what the company may ask for in return. AA/APA, USA/ALPA/USAPA proved that once you give it up, it's generally gone. Snap-back or not. Or wait forever for a judge to rule. The trust has been broken across the board after AA and 23% and USAPA. I could be wrong about SWA and I hope I am. It will prove if they really are as different as everyone says.
While a post above says that we'll take 5 years for a first contract I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that B6 won't be around then. No union guy will accept this truth - or their reply is the banal "cool we'll merged into a real pilot group with a union". It's the same lame @ss talking point.
JetBlue will start taking calls for sale and/or merger the day the vote goes 51% CBA. It is a certainty. I know I sound humble. Sorry. If you don't believe me that's cool. I might know something you don't.[
So, as you stated, we are only a few percentage points behind, and only make a "little bit less than everyone else"..... So raising ONE line out of hundreds "a few percentage points" on that list of costs to run an airline will cause the managers to through away their individual lottery tickets???
Sorry, you are either THAT stupid or are trying (and lying) to scare pilots into following your ideology. You see, there are hundreds of line-items on the CASM sheet, and we little pilots just don't make that much that a "few percentage points" will sink an airline that is making record profits and has industry leading cash in the bank.... Raising the cost of one item on the long list of CASM items "a few percentage points" raises OVERALL CASM a fraction of 1%. That means less than 1%. Its just simple math.
And then you assert that if JB votes CBA, we will be up for sale or merged. You say this as if we will stay independent if we don't. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Which ever manager you pretend to know, doesn't EVER make that decision. Dave Barger doesn't control or even have input as to whether we stay independent. It is the BOD. And they have a fiduciary responsibility to do for the shareholders what ever is in their best interest. And they have even less control in a hostile takeover (remember, we're public).
We are ALWAYS in play. The managers have no control with us merging. Raising our wages a "few percentage points" raises overall CASM less than 1%. We are making record profits. We have industry leading cash in the bank as a percentage of trailing revenues. Our business is growing stronger every quarter with our current business model. Our competitors have higher cost structures and lower productivity (even after we raise our pay package ( a "few percentage points"). You DON'T have inside private corporate knowledge. The points you make and the outcomes you predict are illogical, and based in rhetoric and not real facts.
You're either stupid or lying.
05-03-2012, 05:50 AM
#2580
Moderator
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,971
This thread has become less "latest and greatest" and more "bluepilots" condensed into one thread.
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