Flightnurse

I agree with both the idea that this is a civilized discussion, and with your premise

Cleared4Option

Hi Lake... I just want to make sure that you know that you have my vote. Keep it coming - I am a big fan of listening to all sides of an argument and hearing all of the facts.

Yes, your posts come across with a level of anger and bitterness - but from reading your comments for the last year, it seems like you were a person who did "fall through the cracks" on a STD/LTD issue or something like that. If that is true, I am sorry. I have had various problems though my career/life and rather than them being fixed, as promised, they were swept under the rug. (In one case, by the very union that everyone is discussing...) I think that if everyone looks at their life, unless they were extremely blessed, this has happened to everyone in one form or another. And, if it hasn't happened to you... then you are due. That's life.

Just like my wife reads emotion into my text messages - when there isn't any. I just strip the emotion out of your posts. I read the facts. (and then secretly enjoy the emotional back and forth - for the same reason that people like watching Jerry Springer or slow down for an accident)

The facts that I am thinking about these days:

There is no 'work around.'
American gave TWA (effectively) a staple.
American had said (in corporate communications) that there is a interest.

Either way, this is a very fluid business. Things change all of the time and we as a group need the protections as afforded to us by law, not by the 'we are working on a workaround' crowd.

Captbimmer

Wait, what?? I thought we were in the trust tree.. nest.. are-are we not?

lake alice

Here is the issue with Jetblue, ALPA, the PEA, the 5 documents, etc...

When all of us were hired at Jetblue we all came from other carriers. Many of us were furloughed. Many of us were unhappy with the way bankruptcies went. We were told Jetblue would be different. We were made to believe, initially, Jetblue was different. Fast forward to now. I personally don't believe Jetblue is different. We speak different, we claim otherwise but our actions prove consistent with legacy carriers in most respects.

I can't convince anyone to vote for ALPA, nor should I. The facts are what they are. The pay and benefits package at Jetblue is FACT. Mckaskill/Bond as is applies to us is FACT. The 5 documents and PEA, as they provide for mergers, furloughs, alliances, code shares are FACTS. Unfortunately most pilots do not have a grasp of legaleaze and therefore believed what they were told by Jetblue. Our PVC, due completely to the make up of the members, reiterated exactly Jetblue rhetoric. Truth is much of what they told us is a lie. The documents are right there in front of all of us.

ALPA. According to Moak the entire organization, top to bottom, was turned over. The mentality and support provided is completely different today than it was 5 years prior. The ALPA mentality today is to provide each pilot group the necessary tools to achieve a goal the INDIVIDUAL pilot group desires. There is no outside influence. ALPA's influence for the entire profession comes in the form of lobbying on issues regarding the globalization and foreign ownership of our industry.
Now why should you believe me? I haven't lied about a single fact. You may not like the delivery but facts are just that. Don't want to take my word for it? I suggest you speak with the MEC chairs of Alaska, AirTran, Delta and FedEx. These are the last carriers to sign contracts. They were, and are, more than willing to answer any of your questions on their contract, what the asked for, and how ALPA helped them. Each contract was specific to their own pilot groups desires and in some cases resulted in ONLY a 3% raise. FedEx, for example, went after more QOL issue. That ALPA antagonist will suggest everything is about pay plus 1%.
Jetblue is not a bad place. Many of you have blinders on. I was there as well once. You want to believe Jetblue is truly different. It can be. You must be realistic.

Did anyone see the profit sharing article for Delta? Look it up(gotta go. making dinner).
They actually received profit sharing unlike Jetblue $30. It could have been more but creative accounting keeps it low.

I'm not sure if this answers questions or quells anger fears. I'm not in it for popularity. I want a fair contract. I don't want to be the highest paid. I'm perfectly happy at industry standard with a lifelong career. Is this naive, yes. But I can dream.

whiskey72

To be put in Tier 2B means NOTHING. When I was at Air Wisconsin, we were in 2B and Whiskey still is in 2B. We went for our 2003 contract and almost went to strike. In fact every plane was parked and secured in every station and we were all put in hotels awaiting the shutdown. At 1 a.m. we came to a T.A. to vote on. At that time we were 560 odd pilots. What did we walk away with? An industry LEADING contract in so many areas, rigs, pay, vaca drops, min days off, the list goes on and on. Many pilots for United, our contract partner, and vast other Major Tier 1 airlines were amazed at what we had gained. They were truly astonished at what we had accomplished. We had a contract that almost all airlines at the time were envious of. Let me again repeat the numbers; 560ish pilots on property!

What's my point? Again, Being lumped in tier 2B means NOTHING. It's a grouping system that allows National to oversee airlines in an organized fashion. It has nothing to do with the funds you pay in or what you are going to be given in terms of resources. I lived this, I know this. We had access to MUCH more than our group ever paid in dues. There was no extra ever, EVER asked of us above the 2% that I am aware of.

This is cooked up to seem like we are lesser and that comes from propaganda via the big Blue.

I do in fact love it here and am proud of this company, but that is in no way to be construed that we don't need a Union or CBA. We need both and we need them now more than ever!.

See you guys and gals on the OC. Make it right, make it right now!

Whiskey

Flightnurse

Lake this was a well presented arguement and is making me think. Thank-you the tone makes all the difference

grim04

Wrong,

ALPA did not leave you high and dry your senior pilots did. Don't dilute the facts that we all know with emotional rhetoric.

Give up? What do we have to give up? We now have a JetBlue paycap with unproductive trips for line holders with minimum days off. No reserves to be able to trade days you need. The Highest insurance for pilots in the industry. The worst retirement in the industry. Below AVERAGE pay, a PEA that can be changed by an eraser and a pen. A Flight scheduling Manual that changes weekly to suit the companies need because they can't run an operation efficiently.

As far as your last statement, that is such a weak thing to say. We all know who the cronies are at JetBlue. They don't have to hide. Right now all the voting we have done for PVC representation has been manipulated by the company to try and get a company kissass on the committee. When they couldn't they then started to try and get a pro pilot thrown off and now they have chosen a way to force us to have 1 company stooge on the 3 most important committees. You think that's better?

My question to you is, if not a union and a binding CBA, how do you suppose we protect ourselves from a merger? Leaving out the fact that you can't be biased because you are an AA furlough

sidestep

To be fair, PEA's are an unproven entity. However, as previously stated - ALPA membership does not guarantee any protection in the event of a merger.

I believe that a CBA is probably stronger in court than our PEA's (again unknown), but in my opinion the additional baggage that comes with ALPA doesn't outweigh that unknown.

Honest question - why would the McCaskill-Bond amendment not apply to a non-unionized JB?

pilot772

Several things first you used the terms "unknown" and "unproven" in your post. That means lawyers, courts and arbitration (If we're lucky) How do you plan on paying for all of these lawyers and fees? The company via the 5 docs allocated around $2000 per pilot for any legal fees incurred in the event of a merger. That is only a reimbursement after the fact. So unless you have a war-chest saved up somewhere a union (ALPA) is the only entity with the resources, expertise and knowledge to assist in a merger. As for your question about McCaskill-Bond again you stated it's an unknown which is true (more lawyers and fees) In the actual legislation it actually makes reference to Labor working collectively. Which some have interpreted as Union labor working collectively which we have to enforce as individual's. About those PEA's they are an automatic renewing contract every five years correct? MB also makes reference to only applying to "Permanent" employees. Are we "Permanent" employees? Back to the courts we go. Lastly, an acquiring company would in all likelihood be a holding company not an airline (AMR, Guadalupe holdings, etc.) They could actually just operate the two companies separate and slowly transfer jets without the pilots to the larger airline. I believe this type of scenario is what AirTran was threatened with. A single carrier filing would get expensive and complicated costing a lot of money. There are a lot of "gray" and unproven areas when it comes to our PEA's and McCaskill Bond. This was the main reason I voted for ALPA and continue to believe that it would be our only Hope in the event of a merger

sidestep

Great points and good post. The financial backing of ALPA would be a positive and is an important point to consider.

You lost me when you made the comparison to the AirTran Pilots. They were ALPA, and they got their (you know whats) handed to them during SLI...