SWA Monthly Line Mix
11-18-2010, 05:12 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,804
Thanks to all the SWA guys for taking the time to post their very useful and valueable insight. I'd like to respond to some of the issues that were discussed, but I'm currently trying to condition my liver via Grand Marnier for the SWAPA Round Up in ATL on the 30th.
I think Kdog asked the question of what CDOs are. They're Continous Duty Overnights, also refered to at some airlines as high-speeds or standups. Let us just say that they SUCK! I haven't done one since I was a new-hire and frankly, I'd just call in sick if I somehow got stuck with one now.
Okay, so that really doesn't tell you what they are. It's basically an overnight that's so short that it's legally just one duty period. For example, you report at your base at 2200 for a 2245 dept to your overnight city. When you get there, you only have six hours on the ground and have to report at 0515 for an 0600 push. Are you feeling like you got kicked in the nuts yet? No? Well, try doing one of these unsafe, FAA approved (because you're still technically w/in the max on duty time) trips.
I'll catch up with y'all soon.
I think Kdog asked the question of what CDOs are. They're Continous Duty Overnights, also refered to at some airlines as high-speeds or standups. Let us just say that they SUCK! I haven't done one since I was a new-hire and frankly, I'd just call in sick if I somehow got stuck with one now.
Okay, so that really doesn't tell you what they are. It's basically an overnight that's so short that it's legally just one duty period. For example, you report at your base at 2200 for a 2245 dept to your overnight city. When you get there, you only have six hours on the ground and have to report at 0515 for an 0600 push. Are you feeling like you got kicked in the nuts yet? No? Well, try doing one of these unsafe, FAA approved (because you're still technically w/in the max on duty time) trips.
I'll catch up with y'all soon.
11-18-2010, 05:49 PM
#23
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: 737
Posts: 5
Kdog
as far as productivity and days off per month and the like.....
for Dec we (737) had about 190 hard lines which include the CDO lines. a total of 2 were day trip lines (21 days off & 77 hours credit). we have buildup lines and reserve lines. most trips are 4 days and they credit about 23 hours. we have 4 days that credit 18 and a very few that credit 24,25,26. some 3 days (18 credit down to 10 credit (SFO redeyes)) and almost zero 2 days.
717 has a little more diversity between 3 days and 4 days but, i believe, zero day trip or two day lines.
the highest credit line i saw was 106 hours credit with 15 days off but that was a huge anomaly.
as far as productivity and days off per month and the like.....
for Dec we (737) had about 190 hard lines which include the CDO lines. a total of 2 were day trip lines (21 days off & 77 hours credit). we have buildup lines and reserve lines. most trips are 4 days and they credit about 23 hours. we have 4 days that credit 18 and a very few that credit 24,25,26. some 3 days (18 credit down to 10 credit (SFO redeyes)) and almost zero 2 days.
717 has a little more diversity between 3 days and 4 days but, i believe, zero day trip or two day lines.
the highest credit line i saw was 106 hours credit with 15 days off but that was a huge anomaly.
Last edited by walkerpiercejen; 11-18-2010 at 05:50 PM. Reason: additional info
11-18-2010, 07:34 PM
#24
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
No CDO/high speed/stand-up lines at SWA. Only thing that flies all night are charters, and those are generally picked up out of open time as opposed to being assigned to a RSV guy.
VJA = volunteer/voluntary junior assignment (or available can't remember which). You sign yourself up electronically, and when called, must go to work. Pays time and a half.
Too restrictive? Electronically sign yourself up for "Extra Fly." Scheduling calls you with trips and you can accept or pass on them.
The pecking order for trips is as follows:
1)Open time (can be picked up in seniority order)
2)Extra fly (shopping it to the pilots)
3)RSV
4)VJA
5)JA
Open time and extra fly are straight pay, however its still a good deal when you have a day trip that blocks 6 hours and pays 10 via rigs.
VJA = volunteer/voluntary junior assignment (or available can't remember which). You sign yourself up electronically, and when called, must go to work. Pays time and a half.
Too restrictive? Electronically sign yourself up for "Extra Fly." Scheduling calls you with trips and you can accept or pass on them.
The pecking order for trips is as follows:
1)Open time (can be picked up in seniority order)
2)Extra fly (shopping it to the pilots)
3)RSV
4)VJA
5)JA
Open time and extra fly are straight pay, however its still a good deal when you have a day trip that blocks 6 hours and pays 10 via rigs.
11-19-2010, 03:53 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: standing-by
Posts: 287
Avg duty day is 8.5 hrs
Avg flt time per duty day, just over 6 hrs flt time
Avg legs per day; 3 legs
Avg length per leg; 2 hrs
Avg turn time is 30 minutes
Avg pairing is 3 days in length
One scheduled aircraft swap per 3 day
Those swaps avg just about 1 hrs
Hope that helps.
Avg flt time per duty day, just over 6 hrs flt time
Avg legs per day; 3 legs
Avg length per leg; 2 hrs
Avg turn time is 30 minutes
Avg pairing is 3 days in length
One scheduled aircraft swap per 3 day
Those swaps avg just about 1 hrs
Hope that helps.
11-19-2010, 08:26 AM
#26
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: Right 737
Posts: 85
CDOs - YIKES!!! I hope this goes away in the current legislature. FWIW, the new legislature really only effects us in picking up extra flying (maybe). Our contract is already more restrictive. Aaah, the commuter part may suck. I have a bud at Skywest, he explained this (CDOs) to me a few years ago (just forgot the term); I fell over when he explained it to me. I did not know a major airline did this. I always wondered how this practice can be safe (legal)?
Anyway, I see you other ?s have been answered.
Some other items:
JA pays double time (yes, it is not unheard of to have the FOs making more than their Captain - it is required to buy the Captain beers :-); it is awarded from the bottom of the list up (seniority rules still apply; however, for the junior guys who are not doing anything, they usually pay very well). Also, if you are assigned a trip on a day that you were originally not scheduled to fly, the entire day is paid at double time.
If you are JA'd, you won't be "voluntold" for the remainder of the month (I think I got this correct, the contract refers to this as the "bid period").
You can always give away any JA trips. This is common in the summer months, well it used to be. Guys getting nabbed at home, and throwing it in TTGA (Trip Trade Give-Away). The trips keeps the code / pay. If you give away the trip, you still retain credit for being JA'd in the month.
You can give away EF (open time trips), however, only to those senior to you.
We have a move-up contingency where if scheduling moves up your report time (during the pairing), the entire day is paid at time and a half.
It's a pretty good contract, it's not all unicorns and rainbows though, we still have our issues. In general, as a line holder if scheduling "works" you a little, you are compensated nicely.
One other caveat, I never claim to be a contract expert.
Anyway, I see you other ?s have been answered.
Some other items:
JA pays double time (yes, it is not unheard of to have the FOs making more than their Captain - it is required to buy the Captain beers :-); it is awarded from the bottom of the list up (seniority rules still apply; however, for the junior guys who are not doing anything, they usually pay very well). Also, if you are assigned a trip on a day that you were originally not scheduled to fly, the entire day is paid at double time.
If you are JA'd, you won't be "voluntold" for the remainder of the month (I think I got this correct, the contract refers to this as the "bid period").
You can always give away any JA trips. This is common in the summer months, well it used to be. Guys getting nabbed at home, and throwing it in TTGA (Trip Trade Give-Away). The trips keeps the code / pay. If you give away the trip, you still retain credit for being JA'd in the month.
You can give away EF (open time trips), however, only to those senior to you.
We have a move-up contingency where if scheduling moves up your report time (during the pairing), the entire day is paid at time and a half.
It's a pretty good contract, it's not all unicorns and rainbows though, we still have our issues. In general, as a line holder if scheduling "works" you a little, you are compensated nicely.
One other caveat, I never claim to be a contract expert.
11-19-2010, 10:35 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: KC135 IP
Posts: 398
Lay Over Cities
How hard is it to bid say a certain layover city? I for example would LUV
to get a lot of LAX layovers. Is it possible to get pairing to maximize that type of layover? If so what would be the best pilot base for that?
How hard is it to bid a holiday layover in a city like LAX?
Thanks in advance for you reply. Yes paxhauler nice avatar!!
Boogie
to get a lot of LAX layovers. Is it possible to get pairing to maximize that type of layover? If so what would be the best pilot base for that? How hard is it to bid a holiday layover in a city like LAX?
Thanks in advance for you reply. Yes paxhauler nice avatar!!
Boogie
11-20-2010, 08:25 AM
#28
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: Right 737
Posts: 85
It varies by month. I know that's not a great answer.
I'm LAS and see them all the time. I don't bid them per se, but you could probably get 2 - 3 overnights per month. Interestingly enough, I do see a lot of trips split up in LAX. You could probably pick up, split up trips through LAX (if that fits your QOL). We have a lot of LAX commuters, so trip trade give away on the last flight out probably happens often.
Good luck.
-k
I'm LAS and see them all the time. I don't bid them per se, but you could probably get 2 - 3 overnights per month. Interestingly enough, I do see a lot of trips split up in LAX. You could probably pick up, split up trips through LAX (if that fits your QOL). We have a lot of LAX commuters, so trip trade give away on the last flight out probably happens often.
Good luck.
-k
11-21-2010, 07:45 PM
#30
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: Right 737
Posts: 85
Yes, you can split trips anywhere, anytime. As long as you are legal (FAA limits) your good to go.
As a commuter, I usually have my legs that go through my hometown in give away. Ditto any trips that start with flights to my hometown.
You'll also see a lot of guys who split trips up completely through their hometown. Say a 2-day LAX overnight may have the entire second day in giveaway. it's nice if you just want to work a little commutable trip. If you have a day off with no other commitments, it's nice.
It's not all that common though. Since our days are rather efficient, it's hard to pick up before a pm trip, ditto the end of an am. However, it happens occasionally.
Our commuter policy: any 2 flights that get you there at report time, or a single flight 1 hour prior to report.
Lemme give you an example.
Say your report time is 10 am local. If your options are 7:30, 8:30 and 10 am ETA: the 8:30 flight is your 1st legal option (because the 2nd flight gets you at base at report time).
Now say your options are a single flight that lands at 9 am, your good to go and covered by the commuter policy.
Essentially, as long as you were good to go under this policy, the company will cover your legs until you can catch up to your trip. You loose the pay for those lost legs, but you won't get in any trouble.
Thought I'd just add another aspect of our CBA.
-k
As a commuter, I usually have my legs that go through my hometown in give away. Ditto any trips that start with flights to my hometown.
You'll also see a lot of guys who split trips up completely through their hometown. Say a 2-day LAX overnight may have the entire second day in giveaway. it's nice if you just want to work a little commutable trip. If you have a day off with no other commitments, it's nice.
It's not all that common though. Since our days are rather efficient, it's hard to pick up before a pm trip, ditto the end of an am. However, it happens occasionally.
Our commuter policy: any 2 flights that get you there at report time, or a single flight 1 hour prior to report.
Lemme give you an example.
Say your report time is 10 am local. If your options are 7:30, 8:30 and 10 am ETA: the 8:30 flight is your 1st legal option (because the 2nd flight gets you at base at report time).
Now say your options are a single flight that lands at 9 am, your good to go and covered by the commuter policy.
Essentially, as long as you were good to go under this policy, the company will cover your legs until you can catch up to your trip. You loose the pay for those lost legs, but you won't get in any trouble.
Thought I'd just add another aspect of our CBA.
-k
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