LeeFXDWG

Hog,

I say this with the benefit of experience. I left the AF in 97. We weren't seeing eye to eye and the airlines were hiring gang busters. And, while I never chased the money while at UAL as some of my friends did bidding up as soon as possible, the first years were what I got out for. Reasonable income and outstanding quality of life. That was all I wanted. Reasonable coin and seniority in seat/domicile. Of course, a sweet pension that is now defunct was also a nice cherry on top.

The history of recent past is of course known by you I hope. I have friends that are former AF that came on awhile after I did at UAL. They are on their 2nd furlough. Some had reserve backup and some were successful at returning to AD. Some were not.

The pay isn't there. The quality of life isn't there. Heck, I took a voluntary furlough to take another job that paid a little less but just got tired of the confrontational relationship between UA and the employees. That and to enjoy my 8 year old and see a weekend or holiday off again.

The grass is not greener IMO. I suppose there might be some personal issues that might make you think this is a good move. However, I might suggest a request for a hardship tour to handle that instance. Get an alpha tour if you haven't done one or find your way to a staff job if you need more time at home. Don't look at an airline for nirvana. Granted, SWA pilots ain't doing bad, but that is today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. I turned down DAL and SWA to go with UAL. The 800 pound gorilla at the time and had friends come in after me that were already working at DAL or SWA. What does that tell you. They resigned their seniority to get to UAL. How smart do you think they feel?

Stay in, get a retirement, or if you have to, make sure you have a good guard/reserve job lined up that will let you go AGR or be a total ***** if you need it before ever getting out. I would recommend a "white jet" reserve job if you can't get anything else and can provide some contacts if you need them.

My 2 centavos.

Lee

scambo1

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They are hacking the snot out of the reserves to save money while avoiding a giant uptick in unemployment filings. Theoretically reserves are part timers.

When all the folks coming back from the sandbox hit the street, that will likely swell the unemployment roles enough to tank the stock market on its own.

People who are currently in the reserves cannot avoid the feeling that the mil is "stealing" from the reserves to save money. It is, in the mind of the active duty, the lowest hanging fruit. Very shortsighted IMO, but who am I. Reserves are by far the least expensive force option.

Elvis90

HogDriver, I stayed in the AF for 20 years and am now a new hire at DAL. It's nice to have that retirement income. I will say that the average age of our new hires was around 33-35 years old. I'm 43 and the oldest of my group, but I'll have 21 years with DAL to age 65. Half of our new hire class was military, and of that, half were Navy and half Air Force (with one Marine). 80% of the military folks were in the Guard or Reserves, the rest were retirees like me. Having seniority is a beautiful thing if you can do both airlines and military flying, but likewise the retirement option is also very good. With age 65 retirements kicking in around 2012 through 2020 or so there will be some good hiring this decade.

I've had a lot of friends who took a military leave of absence after getting hired and built up seniority with their airline while earning a military income, then they go back to their airline with lots of choices and much better job security.

UASnake

You didn't say how long you have to go to 20 years, but I say stay in! I'm assuming from your user name you're flying the A-10. IMO, there is nothing better than being a single-seat fighter pilot and you're really gonna miss it when you hang up the g-suit for the last time. I still do, and it's been 12 years since I last felt the afterburner light. If you do decide to get out, your chances of snagging a flying job with a Guard/Reserve unit are better if you're still a Captain, tougher if you've pinned on Major. As others have said, you'll be very busy if you fly for an airline and the military.

Timing really is everything in the airline pilot career. If you get hired in the leading edge of a wave you'll enjoy the benefits of the seniority system. If they slam the hiring door shut right after you get in, you might have to commute to reserve for years and work every weekend and holiday on the lowest pay scale. Not good for the family life. Those are the extremes, most of us fall somewhere in between as far as career timing goes. Still, if I had the choice to make again (with the benefit of hindsight), I'd get the active duty retirement locked in, then re-attack the airlines. And having the retirement pay rolling in along with TriCare will really help if you get furloughed.

My airline experience began when I left the USAF after 10 years to fly for American. Six months later, I was furloughed. Fortunately I was hired by an ANG Viper unit, which I really enjoyed and put food on the table for 2 years until I started at UAL, living the dream from new hire school until 9/11. It's been a hellish emotional roller coaster ride here ever since.

Bottom line: do what you really enjoy. Your family will like being around you more, even with the deployments and PCS moves.

Check six,

Snake

carterj

Grumble,

Would you mind sending that my way? I'm just a fighter guy looking to keep my options open here in the next couple years, and I'd love to see how the money compares.

[email protected]

Fishfreighter

Don't forget the other options. After you retire, that military retirement check allows you to look at Freight or Corporate options as well. In this day and age, a job with NetJets and a military retirement check/benefits can put you way ahead of an airline job where you may be currently looking at a 15 year upgrade.

KennHC130

Hog-Having done what you are considering, I would stay in and get that 20. It is so worth it. I returned to AD after being furloughed from AA in '01. Still furloughed!!...but now with a retirement check guaranteed and med-care for life. With your time in, I'm guessing you are either pinned on O-4 or at least a select. That being the case your 20 is in the bag. You don't have to drink anymore of the AF coolaide about career progression if you don't want to. If you choose to opt out of the rank chasing, just remember your ego as your comrades pin on higher ranks and move on to schools and staff tours that are "highly sought after" for carreer progression. As it happens, the WG/CC here and I were T-38 FAIPS together back in the late 80s. He went his way and made O-6 (with more to come I bet), I went the cockpit only route and made O-4 (permanantly), but fly my *ss off which is what I prefer. Don't know about him, but my stress level is near zero and QOL is off the chart. BTW, if you happen to be a Flying Tiger at a base in the southeast, stop by the CP and look up the OIC (If I'm not flying). Cheers.

Airbum

Cartel that excel spreed isn't worth anymore then some tea leaves and wishful thinking.

Stay active duty or at least a Reserve job until retirement. If anybody thinks they can spread sheet out a airline career .... good luck.

nwaf16dude

20 year O-5 retirement (20 years of payments) = $1,247,083 pre-tax. + minimum 88,000 VA GI Bill Benefit. Think about it.

Wuzzo

That GI Bill Benefit is already yours if you've served 36 mos post-9/11, so doesn't need to be in the equation.

But, I'm speaking as a guy who chose to hang till retirement at 20+.

I know you might be able to show me that leaving as a 11yr Maj for the airlines would put you ahead of a guy who stayed in till 20. But there also is some value in knowing that after a 20yr career as well as disciplined spending and investment, the retirement check, lack of debt, and a bit put away means I could lose my job and still make ends meet... and even live quite comfortably if I scored an a entry-level teacher's salary.

I've got plenty of friends flying airlines and doing the TR thing also - if I were doing that, I'd sure not want to commute to both, and if possible, wouldn't want to commute to either. That's a tough life. Plus, with MPA days being slashed to the bone/eliminated, the TR route is going to be interesting to say the least, and definitely less opportunity for $.

AGR? Word on the street is that a majority of those positions will go ART - pay cut and retire at 60. Ouch.

On the other hand - timing looks awful good right 'bout now.

We're at a strange table these days. Choose your game, take your chances, and don't insult the dice.