Is the grass greener? (Military to Airlines)
10-26-2010, 08:05 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Working 5 to 9
Posts: 523
Really, I'm not trying to start a reserves versus actives fight. But let me try to explain.
Reservists have a full-time job civilian job ... and the active guys just don't get that. Very few of them are on long term orders. There is no mandate or expectation for the reserves to fill any desert slots especially pull "equal weight" -- that's not the job of the reseves when they're not activated. Once they get activated, then they'll be put where they're needed. Active duty is the first line when it comes to wars / deployments.
But please understand, most reservists have full-time civilian jobs. The civilian companies and their workforce sacrifice a lot covering for the reservists who serve their country. A weekend here and weekend there, two weeks out of the year ... no problemo. "Hey boss, I need off for 180 days to go to the desert. And when I get back, you must pay for me to go through recurrent training when I get back. Sorry." That is a huge deal. Politicians know it, the Pentagon knows it. That's why reserve units don't get activated unless it is absolutely necessary.
That is the reason why reservists are reluctant to deploy, not to mention what you already know, it sucks. But it isn't their job; it is active duty's. And reservists who get put onto long term orders to do specific job (work FTU, TTF, Command Post, whatever). They don't get put on orders to walk across the street and say to the actives, "put me in coach." They augment jobs so the active duty can be free to deploy to the desert.
Unfortunately, active duty has way too much on their plate. As officers, a pilot just isn't a pilot, you're everything else first then a pilot. Which is the fundamental problem during a time of overseas contigency operations or whatever the hell the O admin is spinning it these days.
So as you see, there's more to the story as to why the reserves get good deals. Specificaly at Quagmire, the reserves and actives are oil and water; cats and dogs. A long long time ago that train derailed and it is never going back onto the tracks. About the "its a rentention tool" regarding trips. It is a valid argument. How else do you get someone to want to take leave from work (sometimes they'll end up making less money), travel to the reserve unit (usually on their own dime), fly an undesireable mission, and not pay them healthcare? Patriotism is only going to get you so far. Then they go back to their company and all the regional only trained guys a screaming about what a good deal you have and how unfair it is (ok ... don't hate people, I threw that in here for some of us who would get a good laugh at it ... no ill intended).
Oh but you say, the reserves never fly over Thanksgiving or Christmas. Yeah you're right, they don't. But most of them are probably working for their company during that time. EVERYBODY works during peak, you might be one of the very few lucky ones that get the holiday off and the following weekend. Also, unless something radically changed since the end of '07, there's good trips out there. I know cause I flew some ridiculously nice trips during my last year active duty. That is why the KC-10 rules, everybody drools cause everybody wants to fly Big Sexy!
I've been on both sides of the fence ... at Quagmire even. I've seen countless us versus them fights. It is easy for the active duty guys to get angry at the reserves but the reality is, they're angry at their own situation.
Reservists have a full-time job civilian job ... and the active guys just don't get that. Very few of them are on long term orders. There is no mandate or expectation for the reserves to fill any desert slots especially pull "equal weight" -- that's not the job of the reseves when they're not activated. Once they get activated, then they'll be put where they're needed. Active duty is the first line when it comes to wars / deployments.
But please understand, most reservists have full-time civilian jobs. The civilian companies and their workforce sacrifice a lot covering for the reservists who serve their country. A weekend here and weekend there, two weeks out of the year ... no problemo. "Hey boss, I need off for 180 days to go to the desert. And when I get back, you must pay for me to go through recurrent training when I get back. Sorry." That is a huge deal. Politicians know it, the Pentagon knows it. That's why reserve units don't get activated unless it is absolutely necessary.
That is the reason why reservists are reluctant to deploy, not to mention what you already know, it sucks. But it isn't their job; it is active duty's. And reservists who get put onto long term orders to do specific job (work FTU, TTF, Command Post, whatever). They don't get put on orders to walk across the street and say to the actives, "put me in coach." They augment jobs so the active duty can be free to deploy to the desert.
Unfortunately, active duty has way too much on their plate. As officers, a pilot just isn't a pilot, you're everything else first then a pilot. Which is the fundamental problem during a time of overseas contigency operations or whatever the hell the O admin is spinning it these days.
So as you see, there's more to the story as to why the reserves get good deals. Specificaly at Quagmire, the reserves and actives are oil and water; cats and dogs. A long long time ago that train derailed and it is never going back onto the tracks. About the "its a rentention tool" regarding trips. It is a valid argument. How else do you get someone to want to take leave from work (sometimes they'll end up making less money), travel to the reserve unit (usually on their own dime), fly an undesireable mission, and not pay them healthcare? Patriotism is only going to get you so far. Then they go back to their company and all the regional only trained guys a screaming about what a good deal you have and how unfair it is (ok ... don't hate people, I threw that in here for some of us who would get a good laugh at it ... no ill intended).
Oh but you say, the reserves never fly over Thanksgiving or Christmas. Yeah you're right, they don't. But most of them are probably working for their company during that time. EVERYBODY works during peak, you might be one of the very few lucky ones that get the holiday off and the following weekend. Also, unless something radically changed since the end of '07, there's good trips out there. I know cause I flew some ridiculously nice trips during my last year active duty. That is why the KC-10 rules, everybody drools cause everybody wants to fly Big Sexy!
I've been on both sides of the fence ... at Quagmire even. I've seen countless us versus them fights. It is easy for the active duty guys to get angry at the reserves but the reality is, they're angry at their own situation.
10-26-2010, 08:23 PM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,105
It isn't the manning. It is the guys in Group and Wing jobs who are supposed to fly and deploy but never do. The USAF has more than enough pilots. Until the USAF ditches the archaic structure it has, nothing will change.
10-26-2010, 08:36 PM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Working 5 to 9
Posts: 523
Copy, the squadron is a ghost town because everyone is attached for OPR reasons but AFPC says you're overmanned. Love that one...
10-26-2010, 09:09 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,105
Remember the OPR and political jobs are more important than the flying ones. I loved when those jobs started to interfere with my flying and the CC just made the problem go away. That is, the flying.
10-26-2010, 09:40 PM
#115
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: KC10
Posts: 7
FATboy:
You have good points, I'm not trying to turn this into an Active vs. Reserve thread either. Personally, I think the reserves (from my standpoint) have it right. When they are at work wearing a green bag, they seem to focus on their job - flying - a lot more than the AD does. Unfortunately, at some point in the life of an active duty "pilot" flying goes out the window and learning how to play politics is number one.
You're absolutely correct in saying that a pilot's job in the AD world isn't to be a pilot. It's to work a squadron job first, work on projects completely unrelated to flying, attend change of command ceremonies or promotion ceremonies and then fly if there's time left over. It used to be a co-pilot's only job was to learn the airplane by going on as many trips as they could get on, getting out on the road, seeing how an AC manages the mission, learning to become an AC. Not anymore; my squadron would rather have an office manned than send someone on the road. A few months ago we had an AC get certed who had only done one or two coronets as a co-pilot. That's sad, especially when coronets are supposed to be our bread and butter...
Leadership is too concerned with having offices manned, and appearances and is too scared to simply say "no" and look after it's people that it's just driving people to want to jump ship ASAP. Add to the mix that the looming 9-month MC-12 dropdown that comes around twice a year, 60/90/180 day non-flying gigs to the desert (sometimes with a week's notice) and it's not hard to see why people are tired of the lifestyle. Yes, it's called the service, but there's only so much you can ask your family to take or that you yourself can take, especially when you were told you were signing up for something completely different than. The Air Force isn't going to wipe your ass when you're 90 years old.
You're absolutely correct in saying "they're angry at their own situation"; there's just noting we can do about it. If the economy wasn't so bad, I suspect the AF would be scrambling to find out why so many late Capts/Majs were leaving.
The reserves contribute a great amount, but the impression is that the reserves only deploy when they want, for however long they want and the AD should be grateful they are even volunteering to do so. Maybe that is the case, I don't know, I'd hope not. It's tough to gain sympathy from AD guys when they see the same reservists on orders, sometimes for more than a year, who aren't working FTU or another job where they absolutely NEED to not deploy and who haven't deployed, or have only gone on a 30-day deployment.
As far as the retention thing, I think it's a stretch. Are you saying, that in this economy, with people begging for jobs, with traditional reservists who couldn't get AD orders coming back to AD because it's the only job around, that people are going to leave the reserves because the trips just weren't good enough? IMO wanting to quit the reserves because the trips aren't "gucci" enough is an extremely weak and self-centered reason. I'm not saying to snuff the reserves when it comes to trips, but spreading both the wealth and the suck among all squadrons would be nice.
You have good points, I'm not trying to turn this into an Active vs. Reserve thread either. Personally, I think the reserves (from my standpoint) have it right. When they are at work wearing a green bag, they seem to focus on their job - flying - a lot more than the AD does. Unfortunately, at some point in the life of an active duty "pilot" flying goes out the window and learning how to play politics is number one.
You're absolutely correct in saying that a pilot's job in the AD world isn't to be a pilot. It's to work a squadron job first, work on projects completely unrelated to flying, attend change of command ceremonies or promotion ceremonies and then fly if there's time left over. It used to be a co-pilot's only job was to learn the airplane by going on as many trips as they could get on, getting out on the road, seeing how an AC manages the mission, learning to become an AC. Not anymore; my squadron would rather have an office manned than send someone on the road. A few months ago we had an AC get certed who had only done one or two coronets as a co-pilot. That's sad, especially when coronets are supposed to be our bread and butter...
Leadership is too concerned with having offices manned, and appearances and is too scared to simply say "no" and look after it's people that it's just driving people to want to jump ship ASAP. Add to the mix that the looming 9-month MC-12 dropdown that comes around twice a year, 60/90/180 day non-flying gigs to the desert (sometimes with a week's notice) and it's not hard to see why people are tired of the lifestyle. Yes, it's called the service, but there's only so much you can ask your family to take or that you yourself can take, especially when you were told you were signing up for something completely different than. The Air Force isn't going to wipe your ass when you're 90 years old.
You're absolutely correct in saying "they're angry at their own situation"; there's just noting we can do about it. If the economy wasn't so bad, I suspect the AF would be scrambling to find out why so many late Capts/Majs were leaving.
The reserves contribute a great amount, but the impression is that the reserves only deploy when they want, for however long they want and the AD should be grateful they are even volunteering to do so. Maybe that is the case, I don't know, I'd hope not. It's tough to gain sympathy from AD guys when they see the same reservists on orders, sometimes for more than a year, who aren't working FTU or another job where they absolutely NEED to not deploy and who haven't deployed, or have only gone on a 30-day deployment.
As far as the retention thing, I think it's a stretch. Are you saying, that in this economy, with people begging for jobs, with traditional reservists who couldn't get AD orders coming back to AD because it's the only job around, that people are going to leave the reserves because the trips just weren't good enough? IMO wanting to quit the reserves because the trips aren't "gucci" enough is an extremely weak and self-centered reason. I'm not saying to snuff the reserves when it comes to trips, but spreading both the wealth and the suck among all squadrons would be nice.
10-26-2010, 11:29 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 111
You all sound like a bunch of whinning women at the knives club social.
Listen, if you don't like it on AD, man up and quit. And take your shot out in the civil world.
If you don't like the reserve gig ..... leave it.
I will say that the reservists cover a small flying niche, at a reduced overall cost. Our reserve squadron, filled with 10 AD dudes and 30 reservists, work on about 30% of the cost that a full time squadron would be - at the same operational tempo.
When our AD guys bltch, we tell them that maybe they should go back on deployment on the boat. When our reservists bltch, we tell them maybe we should have another hiring board to throw in a junior, most qualified guy to take his spot.
Either way, AD or reservist, there are sacrafices to be made. Both have strengths and weaknesses. If your question originally was ,"is the grass greener", and should I stay in at the 15 year mark? The answer, "is it depends". It depends on your airline contacts, your reputation in the fleet, who is hiring on the outside, how much time you have left on AD, how much you like your AD gig, where your next set of orders are taking you, how long can you survive away from the military on your savings before you get hired ........ and the list goes on and on.
-Aloha
Listen, if you don't like it on AD, man up and quit. And take your shot out in the civil world.
If you don't like the reserve gig ..... leave it.
I will say that the reservists cover a small flying niche, at a reduced overall cost. Our reserve squadron, filled with 10 AD dudes and 30 reservists, work on about 30% of the cost that a full time squadron would be - at the same operational tempo.
When our AD guys bltch, we tell them that maybe they should go back on deployment on the boat. When our reservists bltch, we tell them maybe we should have another hiring board to throw in a junior, most qualified guy to take his spot.
Either way, AD or reservist, there are sacrafices to be made. Both have strengths and weaknesses. If your question originally was ,"is the grass greener", and should I stay in at the 15 year mark? The answer, "is it depends". It depends on your airline contacts, your reputation in the fleet, who is hiring on the outside, how much time you have left on AD, how much you like your AD gig, where your next set of orders are taking you, how long can you survive away from the military on your savings before you get hired ........ and the list goes on and on.
-Aloha
10-27-2010, 03:02 AM
#117
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 757
Posts: 25
10-27-2010, 03:05 PM
#118
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: A-10, Only
Posts: 18
Hogdriver - you're probably at DM. Talk to me. I just quit flying the mighty Hog after 22 yrs to go to Delta. I can already tell that one of the drawbacks is going to be more time away from home albeit on much shorter trips. Being with another airline or living in ATL would dramatically change that. You can't replace the people or the flying. You will probably eventually replace the pay. Retirement makes the transition WAY easier.
Scrape
Scrape
10-27-2010, 06:04 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,105
The reserves contribute a great amount, but the impression is that the reserves only deploy when they want, for however long they want and the AD should be grateful they are even volunteering to do so. Maybe that is the case, I don't know, I'd hope not. It's tough to gain sympathy from AD guys when they see the same reservists on orders, sometimes for more than a year, who aren't working FTU or another job where they absolutely NEED to not deploy and who haven't deployed, or have only gone on a 30-day deployment.
As far as the retention thing, I think it's a stretch. Are you saying, that in this economy, with people begging for jobs, with traditional reservists who couldn't get AD orders coming back to AD because it's the only job around, that people are going to leave the reserves because the trips just weren't good enough? IMO wanting to quit the reserves because the trips aren't "gucci" enough is an extremely weak and self-centered reason. I'm not saying to snuff the reserves when it comes to trips, but spreading both the wealth and the suck among all squadrons would be nice.
As far as the retention thing, I think it's a stretch. Are you saying, that in this economy, with people begging for jobs, with traditional reservists who couldn't get AD orders coming back to AD because it's the only job around, that people are going to leave the reserves because the trips just weren't good enough? IMO wanting to quit the reserves because the trips aren't "gucci" enough is an extremely weak and self-centered reason. I'm not saying to snuff the reserves when it comes to trips, but spreading both the wealth and the suck among all squadrons would be nice.
Your beef is with your leadership, not with the reserves. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Besides, you should be happy with all the flight time you're getting. I loved going to the desert -- 300 hours cha-ching.
10-27-2010, 07:31 PM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Waded into this guy's paper...156 pages. My initial reaction: Did you think that fighter stuff was SERIOUS?
I was at the 95FS during the "AFP" filming...even in a segment or two of the trailer but didn't make the CBS cut. However...obvious this guy thought that junk was serious. That's like saying MTV's "Real World" is a good reflection on the life of young adults...or that when a fraternity sings "Sigma Nu is the best..." that somehow he thinks they frat boys REALLY believe it.
Plaques on a bar about "ROE" or "F-15 Rules" are fun. There is some truth to them. But they are there for FUN. Hanging out with the bros is FUN. Drinking and singing stupid songs is FUN. Hazing...givin' or gettin'....is fun if done in moderation. But geez...this guy listened to some drunk pilot blow hard statements and took them literally.
I appreciate what this guy was trying to say about the importance of culture, but if he thought some of that fighter Friday night bluster was real, I think he is taking us...and himself....waaaaay too seriously. When a fighter pilot says "an F15 guy can do any job better than anyone else in the Air Force...IF he wanted to that job that is...." and he takes it literally...well....I got nothin'. (Granted...some of my fighter brethren probably could....but that's besides the point).
Interesting read. But the lack of intellectual depth and the inability of the author to separate real culture from satire and moral building makes most of his arguments rather moot IMHO.
But yeah...I guess I am a Nazi. I thought anyone showing up with two-toned dyed hair for a fighter course was a bit lame. Then again, I'd think I'd feel the same way if I was training C130 students, KC-135 drivers, or soloing out the kid at the local FBO. But that's just me...
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
