Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 876741)
Bring it on. From that talks I have heard on the crew lounges etc, DAL is not afraid of LUV at all.
Also ATL is a good O and D hub but unless LUV goes and gets a bunch of international jets it will have its own market much like AAI currently does. |
Heyas,
Interesting development today: One SWA's entry into ATL: Strictly defensive and a sign that they've run out of low hanging fruit. You go to where the people are, and not where they're not. That means operating at the "big show" airports like EWR, DCA and ATL. Now they are merging, operating at delay laden, congested airports and now will be operating more than one aircraft type. Cutesy commercials aside, that looks like a legacy carrier. Should DAL have anything to fear? Not really. NWA kept SWA at bay in DTW, and DAL has kept them bottled up in SLC for years and years, and the same management team that did so is now running DAL. If anything DAL will benefit by having a more stable competitor that's interested in making money, versus one that is simply trying to stay afloat long enough to be bought. DAL pilots will certainly benefit, as we're now competing with pilots with a higher bar, versus a lower one (no offense to the Tranny guys....we know you were trying), and you can't fight off 737s with RJs. On the SWA/AirTran SLI: A tricky one. A 1998 Tranny hire is a captain in the top 10 percent of the whole list..maybe closer to 8th percentile. I doubt that a 1998 hire at SWA is in that percentile, or even close. To do a DOH list, you'd be putting a 98 DOH Tranny guy with whatever a 98 DOH at SWA gets you, which I'm guessing is in the 40ish percentile, a huge destruction in bidding power. OTOH, you do a ratio list, and now your putting a 10th percentile Tranny guy in with a 10th percentile SWA guy (80s hire?), and I don't think that disparate of DOHs will float, even if guys say that DOH doesn't matter. Don't think ALPA will fight it? Who cares. Not all of AirTran pilot resources are tied up in ALPA. It's going to either wind up as some kind of multi-segment multi-ratio list like the NWA/DAL list, or head to arbitration. On industry consolidation: SWA's AirTran deal parks more of Skywests RJs. More metal parked in the desert. Alaska is next. It's a must win for DAL. UAL/CAL is going to be ****ed. They just gave up good stuff for nothing. I'd expect that DAL will re-file the slot swap with the DOT ASAP as Tranny gave SWA the slots they were crying about. NO reason for denial now. JetBlue to AA. Consolidate the NYC market, consolidate the south Florida market, grab some more trans-con, which is traditional AMR territory. A non-union group will be easy pickings, relatively speaking. ALK is outside AMR's core territory, and it'd be hard for them to integrate it into their network to gain any return. Without any significant Pacific ops, ALK for AMR is just more domestic that is vulnerable to SWA, same as TWA. DAL, OTOH, uses it to feed international and gains significant revenue improvement from it. AAA obviously has some value in their DCA and LGA slots. As this progresses, the parts of that outfit become more valuable than the whole. The wildcard is FronMidRepublicwestiertauqua. Grow much bigger, and they run the risk of alienating their major partners. But by not growing into something bigger, they run the risk of being priced out of business when the new FTDT rules go into effect. Spirit? There is some decent international authorities. They mostly compete with AMR, with some DAL. For some outfit wanting to push into the near-international, they'd be a tasty snack. Or I could be, and usually am, completely wrong.... Nu |
I have spent a lot of time reading all the different forums, and done a little research on the laws and listened to what SWAPA is putting out. I am a SWA FO about 400 from the bottom. The main sticking point for the SLI is:
"a. Preserve jobs. b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other. c. Maintain or improve pre merger pay and standard of living. d. Maintain or improve pre merger pilot status. e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations." a. I sincerely hope everyone is on the combined list, including the poolies at both airlines. b. With respect to maintaining or improving pay, I believe this will be a significant pay increase for the Captains at AirTran, and a huge increase for their FO's. SWA Pilots will really gain nothing as far as improvements from the AirTran contract (as far as I know, trying to be detached and unemotional, very hard). Throw in the benefits, Duty Rigs, work rules, and SWA brings the lion's share of improvements to the table. c. The maintain standard of living or seniority and QOL will be tough. Nobody wins except the senior SWA Captains. d. Same as above. e. This is where the Junior FO's at SWA really get the shaft. I personally think that the Captains at AirTran hired pre 9/11 should get brought over into the left seat with some seniority. Longevity matters. They will take a hit in respect to seniority, but the pay, rigs, and other work improvements windfall will hopefully help with the seniority hit. A fence will exist for a certain amount of time. I don't think a staple is in order. I also think that the fair and equitable and no windfalls part of the law will apply to an 717 FO at AirTran, and with the huge pay increases and work rule improvements, and working at SWA (financially) is a windfall. A fifth year FO at Airtran according to APC makes $72, a fifth year FO at SWA makes $124 an hour (a 70% increase in pay, that is a windfall). There is no way there will be a DOH integration, and there is no way there is going to be a staple. I am not trying to be the arrogant SWA guy or any of that. I think everyone will walk away upset, but I hope we all will make this a better place to be. The pay increases for the AirTran pilots gives some leverage with respect to the law. Once again, staple isn't fair, but if an FO on their list hired a week before me gets on the master list above me, I don't think that is close to fair either. Fire away. Looking for honest and fair inputs, not flame bait. SWA FO |
First, there will be no fair and honest discussion of merger seniority integration on this board. Not only because most that participate would rather see the SWA/AirTran deal, but also because we can't make this thread primarily about seniority integration because the moderators will move it.
Second, it's a really bad idea to negotiate on a forum that consists primarily of unknown pilots from other airlines. I think that you should seriously consider some healthy editing. If you are a SWA pilot, you have absolutely nothing to gain by discussing SLI here because the are very few SWA and AirTran pilots that actually participate on this forum. Do whatever you want, though - just friendly advice. |
Originally Posted by pilotrob23
(Post 877221)
stapled to the bottom. Funny if your thinking about a straight seniority integration. If they dont want it, they can move over to the tens of thousands appliants who will gladly start at the bottom. Not hating on alpa, or airtran, but that is how it is looking. Good luck to all though!
An straight integration will either be negotiated, or decided by an arbitrator. There is no staple allowed. |
Originally Posted by LuvJockey
(Post 877324)
First, there will be no fair and honest discussion of merger seniority integration on this board. Not only because most that participate would rather see the SWA/AirTran deal, but also because we can't make this thread primarily about seniority integration because the moderators will move it.
Second, it's a really bad idea to negotiate on a forum that consists primarily of unknown pilots from other airlines. I think that you should seriously consider some healthy editing. If you are a SWA pilot, you have absolutely nothing to gain by discussing SLI here because the are very few SWA and AirTran pilots that actually participate on this forum. Do whatever you want, though - just friendly advice. Then give me every 5th or so post to do whatever I want. I promise I won't mention Delta, or Southwest or AirTran. That way, it can't be said that its about the merger. If we post enough cheerleader pictures there is no way the moderators will move it. :D |
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Done - it had better be higher quality than that and have two XX chromosomes.
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A couple random thoughts:
1. Unless you're on the merger committees, NONE of you have any idea how the SLI will go. So, getting all wrapped around the axle about this is wasted psychic energy. Time will tell and that's all. 2. The 717s will be gone, sooner than later. SWA doesn't want to fly them. There are plenty of operators out there who do and SWA should be able to get rid of them as fast as possible. What SWA DOES want is the AAI 737 production line options. AAI has something like 80 positions. These positions could EASILY be converted into the -800 orders SWA wants with no waiting for downline positions. 3. Given #2 plus the quote "All AAI employees will be given the opportunity for employment" the subtle suggestion is that the 737 qualified AAI pilots may get integrated and the 717 guys given interviews. Its happened before, in SWA's case Muse, Morris and Frontier. And you must all remember CAL/PeoplExpress. If this is termed an acquisition and not a merger, the argument could be made that Bond/McCaskill doesn't apply. Hopefully, it will be a full list ratioed integration of some sort, but it doesn't have to be. 4. Personally, I think an SWA/AS combo would have been better, but apparently SWA is more interested in growing East vs. West. What this combo does is virtually guarantee that DAL/AS or DAL/B6 will happen sooner than later. Today's AS stock spike indicates that the market thinks its DAL/AS. All that said, I wish nothing but the best of luck to all the employees of both airlines. If you all are civilized and work together you can make this a fantastic place for a career. Put aside all the me, Me, ME, replace it with US. There's nothing sadder than a group of employees who carry an SLI grudge for decades because they thought they got screwed. That's poisonous. Don't fall into that trap. |
Originally Posted by MILUAL
(Post 877025)
717 operators
Australia
That is what Gary Kelly is saying. Who really knows since he is just the CEO. |
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