Originally Posted by sailingfun

Delta management does not care what they pay us at Delta. They only care what they pay us relative to the competition. This is a brutally cost competitive industry. The only real path to restoration is steps taken over time that other airlines follow.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

In my case you are incorrect. If it improved the profession, I would be all for it. What you talk about is the "I" or "Me" mentality that has really killed this profession.

If I could not pass the new barriers to entry I have no fear that I would not land on my feet somewhere else.

See this process starts long before the Medical Boards or Bar Exams. It starts with entry and weeding out in the process and culminates with these exams. We have some of that here, but not to the same degree.

Originally Posted by Gunfighter

I'm in favor of raising the standards and barriers to entry, which will reduce the number of pilots. If that means I should be eliminated, raise the standards to eliminate me. I'll just work harder and meet the higher standards, as would many others. That is GOOD for the profession as a whole.

Originally Posted by Eric Stratton

So what standards and barriers would you add?

Originally Posted by Gunfighter

Here are a few for starters.
-1500hrs for carrying passengers.
-College Degree for FOs.
-Masters Degree for Capt.
-ATP testing similar to Bar exam or med school exam.
-1,000 takeoffs and 1,000 landings for ATP (500 must be full-stop).
-500 hours PIC.
-300 hours of instrument time.
-200 hours solo or instructor time.

Originally Posted by Gunfighter

Here are a few for starters.
-1500hrs for carrying passengers.
-College Degree for FOs.
-Masters Degree for Capt.
-ATP testing similar to Bar exam or med school exam.
-1,000 takeoffs and 1,000 landings for ATP (500 must be full-stop).
-500 hours PIC.
-300 hours of instrument time.
-200 hours solo or instructor time.

Originally Posted by sailingfun

A great idea, except for one small issue called the RLA. I don't believe there is any legal way to try and limit pilot numbers.

On the subject of restoration I am all for it and would love to see it. It would of course mean that pay rates at Delta would have to double from current rates and other expenses soar. A true restoration contract would move total pilot expenses at Delta from about 2.2 billion a year to 4.5 to 5 billion a year. As a senior pilot I would love to see that happen.
If however I was a junior pilot I might have a different perspective on the issue. In the time I have been in this industry airlines that have allowed their costs to get out of line with other airlines have withered on the vine. Those with a advantage have prospered. Two easy examples. AMR had a large cost advantage over other airlines from 85 to the early 90's. They grew at a rate almost never seen at a large airline. When there costs jumped up higher then other airlines that trend reversed itself. The second obvious example is SWA. Low costs gave them sustained growth year after year. Then through a odd set of circumstances they lost their historical employee cost advantage. That also ended the decades long run of consistant growth.
Delta management does not care what they pay us at Delta. They only care what they pay us relative to the competition. This is a brutally cost competitive industry. The only real path to restoration is steps taken over time that other airlines follow. We can certainly open for a restoration contract. I can tell you what will follow. Management will say, Thank you for your opener. We will present our counter off in June. We will say June is 6 months away. Thats crazy. Management will say you are mistaken. We meant June of 14 not 13. They will simply refuse to negotiate. The NMB will allow them to do this because they will view us as not negotiating in good faith. Don't think so? Look only as far as American.
I always asked those that want nothing short of full restoration to provide a plan to achieve that within the tremendous restrictions the RLA imposes on us. I have never been given a single answer to how. I have only been told wants. Big difference there.

I think the strategy that will put more money over time in my pocket and allow for continued growth for the junior pilots is to take a more pragmatic approach. We open for a contract that will be industry leading but not way out of line. We let management know that this is contingent on getting a contract done on or near the amendable date. We make some nice gains begin getting those gains quickly. We sign a short duration contract like they used to be. Hopefully 3 years but no longer then 4. That allows other airlines to hopefully leapfrog us and puts us back at the table in 2016 going for the second big bite of the apple. If we open for a restoration contract we will still be negotiating and working under the current contract in 2016 without question. Thumping our chests and demanding restoration may make us feel good but I don't see any way it puts the most money and quality of life in my families pocket.

Originally Posted by Eric Stratton

So what are the barriers that you suggest to limit pilot numbers? Most pilots that talk about limiting the number of pilots just want to limit the number.

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

Great post Nerd.

Somebody brought up the seniority-based pay scales, and the ingrained "pay-your-dues" system that's plaguing the airline industry. I will also say that the problem isn't the management. The problem is the collective mentality of airline pilots in the US.

After my airline collapsed (Aloha), many of us lost everything. Nerd, imagine yourself right now, you are an experienced captain making a solid living, but due to really poor management, you find your airline collapsing and now you no longer have a job. OK, it happens to the best of us, you say. I will go and find another job. But unlike most other "professionals", you, despite most likely decades of experience in the cockpit, years as a captain making decisions, are limited to making less than $3000/month again, and that's if you're 'fortunate' enough to get hired an outfit like say Allegiant or JetBlue.

"It's not fair to have anyone off-the-street or some 'brown noser' bypass me (in terms of pay, seat, etc.) - I was here first" is the argument you'll hear from the people in any airline.

What also fosters the above argument is are the tiered payscales. Everyone rightfully wants to protect theirs. So as a result, if, God-forbid, your airline goes out of business, and you're young and 'fortunate' enough to get hired by another airline, remember, your experience, your time in the industry, your previous compensation do not matter one iota. You are still sentenced to under $3000/month.

... and what's even more shocking is that the pilot population accepts that as normal.

Do airline managers 'lose' all their years of experience when it comes to their compensation? Maybe their 'loss' is about equal to the percentage of pilots' pay cuts as parts of concessions.

The management sees this as a way to keep your wages low simply because you will have to start over somewhere else, and to many, it might be financially impossible. Just think in terms of concessions you've given over the last decade, still better than losing your seniority-protected pay, right? In the meanwhile, look at the airline executive compensation and bonuses while you were taking pay cuts and losing your pension.

Sadly, US pilot population accepts this as normal, and as long as that mentality persists among the pilot ranks, you will not exact any changes.

As a result of this, many of my former airline colleagues took jobs flying for overseas airlines where there is no 'seniority system' like in the US, where you are paid as a professional from day 1 as opposed to 10 years from now.

Unfortunately, in the US, I don't see the pilot compensation system changing without radical changes in pilots' collective way of thinking, and sadly, I think it's highly unlikely.