Delta Pilots Association
12-02-2010, 04:34 PM
#3202
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
12-02-2010, 04:45 PM
#3203
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
It's you being correct and me being 100% forgetful that I said that. But here is the whole post in context:
It is irritating to senior guys like myself who spent lots of time on the street both on furlough and striking to better the profession overrall, then hearing guys like you and satchip who slander us now as people only concerned with our own gain.
I'll admit that being so wrongly slandered by ignorant youth can make me say things that are not very tender.
Carl
Yes, I play such an unfair game of quoting what you actually type. Grow some grapes and a spine, and maybe you won't be so embarrassed by seeing your own words reprinted.
I know you're a scared new guy with a family. I was the same 32 years ago. But your stance of accepting anything just to keep yourself employed is weak and shameful. The success I have today is only due to the giants who came before me and would not let management after management destroy our profession since 1932. I owe their memories the same fight for this profession even though I'm almost done. You owe it to their memories too.
If our gains are "too much" and you have to spend a little time on the street, suck it up and realize you'll be coming back to a profession worth coming back to. Not an RJ job flying Boeings.
Carl
I know you're a scared new guy with a family. I was the same 32 years ago. But your stance of accepting anything just to keep yourself employed is weak and shameful. The success I have today is only due to the giants who came before me and would not let management after management destroy our profession since 1932. I owe their memories the same fight for this profession even though I'm almost done. You owe it to their memories too.
If our gains are "too much" and you have to spend a little time on the street, suck it up and realize you'll be coming back to a profession worth coming back to. Not an RJ job flying Boeings.
Carl
I'll admit that being so wrongly slandered by ignorant youth can make me say things that are not very tender.
Carl
12-02-2010, 04:55 PM
#3204
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
12-02-2010, 05:01 PM
#3205
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
This is one of the big eye openers for me. I really didn't know that there is a block of junior folks that stoke this class warfare stuff. They've never lost 50%+ overnight, so they see inflation based increases from here as best for their own personal job security. Even at the expense of the profession overrall.
Carl
Carl
12-02-2010, 05:03 PM
#3206
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl;
Let me set you straight on one thing. I want you to get everything you can. I do think the days of scutteling the bottom of the list are over though. With career FO's and guys that could not upgrade if they wanted to, the demands have changed.
Loss of a DB, Scope(all not just SJ) and the CH11 gutting of the PWA's has resulted in a need for a lot of improvement in many areas. Hindsight is always 20/20, and we are faced with a difficult road. Being one of the largest airlines, and the fact that we need to work within the RLA and with the NMB means we need to be smart about everything we do. It does not mean we need to like it, just that we need to deal with it the best we can. That is why I think it is at least prudent to look at a two pronged approach. We may opt not to use it, but it is only responsible of our union to see if there is a way to put more money in everyone's pocket sooner. (Most importantly the guys that will need to retire in the next seven years or so)
Let me set you straight on one thing. I want you to get everything you can. I do think the days of scutteling the bottom of the list are over though. With career FO's and guys that could not upgrade if they wanted to, the demands have changed.
Loss of a DB, Scope(all not just SJ) and the CH11 gutting of the PWA's has resulted in a need for a lot of improvement in many areas. Hindsight is always 20/20, and we are faced with a difficult road. Being one of the largest airlines, and the fact that we need to work within the RLA and with the NMB means we need to be smart about everything we do. It does not mean we need to like it, just that we need to deal with it the best we can. That is why I think it is at least prudent to look at a two pronged approach. We may opt not to use it, but it is only responsible of our union to see if there is a way to put more money in everyone's pocket sooner. (Most importantly the guys that will need to retire in the next seven years or so)
12-02-2010, 05:05 PM
#3207
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
But your words are just cowardly. Your words are: 'I'm just fine with the profession being much worse than it was before I got here...as long as I never have to sacrifice anything personally.'
Carl
12-02-2010, 05:07 PM
#3208
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
12-02-2010, 05:15 PM
#3209
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Today's senior folks like me voted for things like:
1. Less hours and temporary leaves to mitigated furloughs
2. Refusing high time trips while there were guys on furlough.
3. Funding furlough pay for furloughees.
4. Funding COBRA premiums for furloughed guys.
Just to name a few.
Those are all facts. They happened. Being portrayed by those same folks that we helped as greedy and selfish is just shameful. If you could ever get that straight, it would go a long way to heal this class warefare stuff.
Carl
12-02-2010, 05:56 PM
#3210
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Some pilots did retire on their normal date. They did however only get their normal retirement in that case. The 505 came out of the top 790 pilots at the airline. They all had 25 years so the points went to age. You could not draw more then the age 60 retirement provided. You may not have liked the program but all our furloughed pilots came back to work and Delta posted the largest bid in their history that did produce a huge amount of movement. Again there was no huge windfall for senior guys. They simply got their earned retirement. As far as the pre 72 pilots the company as you stated requested to freeze the benefit. The senior pilots I knew felt DALPA sold them out by agreeing to the freeze because the S@P was going up and up. I am still waiting for all the huge benefits the senior group got while raping the junior guys. The 96 contract has become a urban legend.
I thought of this after my earlier post, but I was out snowmobiling and didn't have access to a computer or Internet.
IIRC the pilots who took the early retirement got some significant medical benefits. I don't remember what it was, but I do recall it was a good deal, and was reason alone to take the incentive.
Some guys did get a huge windfall. I'll explain, but first a little background for those who came along after we lost our DB plan.
A full retirement from Delta was equal to 60% Final Average Earnings. To get a "full" retirement the pilot had to retire at 60 years of age and have a minimum of 25 years of Delta service.
As Sailing pointed out, the 505 who took the early retirement incentive were pretty senior dudes. I don't know the demographics of the 505, but I do know that not all were originally hired by Delta. Within the 505 there were a fair number who were former Western Air Lines pilots and former Pan Am pilots.
In the case of Western I believe that merger happened in 1986. Delta acquired Pan Am in 1991. An acquired pilot would typically retire at 60, but they wouldn't have the 25 years so their retirement was calculated as a percentage. For example a Pan Am pilot retiring in 1996 would have 5 years of longevity. His retirement would be 5/25 of 60% FAE.
Similarly a Western pilot would have 10/25 of 60% FAE.
So in the case of a former Pan Am pilot who took the "early retirement", he had five years added on to his longevity. Instead of 5/25 of 60% FAE, he got 10/25 of 60% FAE. That's literally twice the retirement he would have received without the early retirement incentive.
I call that a "huge benefit", and I would think the vast majority of pilots would as well.
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