Delta Pilots Association
10-10-2014, 08:00 PM
#9371
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I've got nothing to add to the current back and forth, but your and Carl's statements intrigued me as yall seemed to be the last holdouts.
10-10-2014, 10:29 PM
#9372
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 956
Isn't the E170/175 a 90 seat aircraft that we limited by contract to 76? If so, then the following scope history overview doesn't line up with your statement:
__________________________________________
The 1990 contract had two pages of scope (actually 1.5) allowing the company to operate unlimited 70 seat and below aircraft (with no limits type, weight, propulsion or use). Some where in this time frame ASA was given permission to operate Bae-146's (96 seats).
The 1996 contract grew to 9 pages. Real improvements were made with regard to control of the company, merger protection, furlough, foreign carrier flying, and minimum block hours of international flying (limiting future international code share arrangements if the company dropped below the minimum number). A limit of 20 was placed on the Bae-146's (or any replacement jets in a 96 seat capacity). The limits on connection carrier flying was no more than 70 seats (again, no limit on type, weight, powerplant) for passenger use, and a weight limit of 70,000 lbs for cargo use.
The 2001 contract grew to 15 pages. New to the contract was:
-minimum block hours for all DAL flying,
-connection carrier flying
-limit of 57 70 seat RJ's (weight limited to 85,000 lbs)
and up to 18 more RJ 70's (one more for each 10000 hours of mainline flying over the annual minimum set by the contract),
-limit on 50 seat Rj's of 65000 lbs
-limit of 70 seats/70000 lbs on prop aircraft for any use (weight limit on passenger use was new).
-all connection carrier flying was subject to a ratio of mainline hours/connection carrier flying.
-Rj use restrictions on stage length, hub to hub flying, and logo/name use
-DAL not permitted to code share with company(s) that operate jets greater than 70 seats (and not to be used for DAL flying)
-Bae-146's and their replacements GONE
-increased international flying block hours (with new penalties for dropping below) and new restrictions on international code share/profit sharing.
-fragmentation protection
-prohibition of DAL training pilots for service in the event of a labor dispute on our code share partners (domestic and international) and vice-versa (e.g. DAL could not hire pilots trained by Comair of Air France in the event we were on strike).
2 provisions of the above were subject to economic resets:
-the minimum number of mainline block hours
-the ratio of connection carrier flying to mainline
No other provisions were reset: meaning limits on 70 seaters (then at 57), weights, stage length, hub to hub were excused.
In the event that the economy or DAL failed to perform, then DAL was excused from those two provisions as written. (These two provisions ((as well as furlough protection) were also subject to "circumstance over which the company does not have control".) The first time either economic trigger occurred, there was a built in reset. The second time there was a provision to meet and confer to reset them again. We all know what happened in 2001 and that the triggers were met in 2001-2002. Twice. So what occurred next? DAL and ALPA did reset both provisions in the fall of 2002 as part of the NWA/CAL code share. FYI, it was the MEC that tied the two talks together as they both pertained to scope (the company asked to sever the negotiations to get a quick deal on the CAL/NWA deal).
Letter 46
-Reduced the minimum number of block hours and the connection carrier flying ratio.
-eliminated furlough protection, but required all furloughed pilots to be recalled by 8/1/2008
-reduced the international block hour flying
-allowed up to 125 70 seat RJ's (still covered by the ratio)
Letter 51
-eliminated minimum block hours
-eliminated minimum international block hours
-eliminated the ratio of mainline to connection carrier flying
-allowed connection carrier to fly up to 200 70 seat jets
-allowed connection carriers to operate 30 76 seat jets (covered under the limit of total greater than 50 seat jets)
__________________________________________
The 1990 contract had two pages of scope (actually 1.5) allowing the company to operate unlimited 70 seat and below aircraft (with no limits type, weight, propulsion or use). Some where in this time frame ASA was given permission to operate Bae-146's (96 seats).
The 1996 contract grew to 9 pages. Real improvements were made with regard to control of the company, merger protection, furlough, foreign carrier flying, and minimum block hours of international flying (limiting future international code share arrangements if the company dropped below the minimum number). A limit of 20 was placed on the Bae-146's (or any replacement jets in a 96 seat capacity). The limits on connection carrier flying was no more than 70 seats (again, no limit on type, weight, powerplant) for passenger use, and a weight limit of 70,000 lbs for cargo use.
The 2001 contract grew to 15 pages. New to the contract was:
-minimum block hours for all DAL flying,
-connection carrier flying
-limit of 57 70 seat RJ's (weight limited to 85,000 lbs)
and up to 18 more RJ 70's (one more for each 10000 hours of mainline flying over the annual minimum set by the contract),
-limit on 50 seat Rj's of 65000 lbs
-limit of 70 seats/70000 lbs on prop aircraft for any use (weight limit on passenger use was new).
-all connection carrier flying was subject to a ratio of mainline hours/connection carrier flying.
-Rj use restrictions on stage length, hub to hub flying, and logo/name use
-DAL not permitted to code share with company(s) that operate jets greater than 70 seats (and not to be used for DAL flying)
-Bae-146's and their replacements GONE
-increased international flying block hours (with new penalties for dropping below) and new restrictions on international code share/profit sharing.
-fragmentation protection
-prohibition of DAL training pilots for service in the event of a labor dispute on our code share partners (domestic and international) and vice-versa (e.g. DAL could not hire pilots trained by Comair of Air France in the event we were on strike).
2 provisions of the above were subject to economic resets:
-the minimum number of mainline block hours
-the ratio of connection carrier flying to mainline
No other provisions were reset: meaning limits on 70 seaters (then at 57), weights, stage length, hub to hub were excused.
In the event that the economy or DAL failed to perform, then DAL was excused from those two provisions as written. (These two provisions ((as well as furlough protection) were also subject to "circumstance over which the company does not have control".) The first time either economic trigger occurred, there was a built in reset. The second time there was a provision to meet and confer to reset them again. We all know what happened in 2001 and that the triggers were met in 2001-2002. Twice. So what occurred next? DAL and ALPA did reset both provisions in the fall of 2002 as part of the NWA/CAL code share. FYI, it was the MEC that tied the two talks together as they both pertained to scope (the company asked to sever the negotiations to get a quick deal on the CAL/NWA deal).
Letter 46
-Reduced the minimum number of block hours and the connection carrier flying ratio.
-eliminated furlough protection, but required all furloughed pilots to be recalled by 8/1/2008
-reduced the international block hour flying
-allowed up to 125 70 seat RJ's (still covered by the ratio)
Letter 51
-eliminated minimum block hours
-eliminated minimum international block hours
-eliminated the ratio of mainline to connection carrier flying
-allowed connection carrier to fly up to 200 70 seat jets
-allowed connection carriers to operate 30 76 seat jets (covered under the limit of total greater than 50 seat jets)
IIRC, post C2k the CRJ-700 showed up at DCI as a permitted 70 seater under the new scope. As soon as Letter 46 became effective in December 2004, Delta ordered some E-170s that went to Shuttle America (Republic) and I think some more CRJ-700s going to other DCI carriers under the newly expanded limits. Letter 51 was when the 76-seaters were allowed and that's when DCI started getting the CRJ-900 and the E-175.
All of us who were at Delta during these agreements knows (or should know) that there were different Master Chairmen and Neg Com Chairmen for each agreement (and I'm not referring to you directly 88). C2k - Giambusso was the Master Chairman and Malone was the Neg Com Chairman. LOA 46 - Malone was the Master Chairman and Wykoff was the Neg Com Chairman. LOA 51 - Moak was the Master Chairman and O'Malley was the Neg Com Chairman.
Last edited by Hillbilly; 10-10-2014 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Didn't want 88 to think I was directing it at him.
10-10-2014, 10:38 PM
#9373
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 956
Are there bills to be paid before turning out the lights? I don't know. Having an attorney perform work over the last several years and alleging to use the attorney further in future court dates wouldn't be free if I were to venture a guess. I really have no idea why TC didn't close up shop long ago. It's been 4 1/2 years for goodness sake. Enough already.
10-11-2014, 04:03 AM
#9374
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Your mentioning of "Has absolutely nothing to do with DPA. I think it would have been more practical to replace the total wreck that is ALPA, but it's become clear that's not going to happen. And the more I've seen from DPA, I doubt it would have been a particularly good replacement." as well as Carl's similar statements recently are what spurred my comment.
I've got nothing to add to the current back and forth, but your and Carl's statements intrigued me as yall seemed to be the last holdouts.
I've got nothing to add to the current back and forth, but your and Carl's statements intrigued me as yall seemed to be the last holdouts.
10-11-2014, 06:38 AM
#9376
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
10-11-2014, 07:08 AM
#9377
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
C2K
Section 1.B.17. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
c. one of up to 57 jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 70 or fewer passenger seats and a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 85,000 or fewer pounds. This number (57) will be increased to a maximum of 75 at the rate of one aircraft for each increment of 10,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying in the previous year above the scheduled block hours set forth for that year in the block hour plan set forth in Section 1 E. 1., (i.e., prior to any resets under Section 1 E. 5. or 6.).
LOA46
Amend Section 1 B. 17. c. to read as follows:
c. one of up to the number specified in the chart below jet aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 85,000 pounds or less (“70-seat jets”). This number of permitted 70-seat jets will be increased to a maximum of 150 in increments of one aircraft for each unit of 10,000 scheduled block hours by which the number of scheduled block hours of Company flying in the calendar years 2005 or later exceeds 1,950,000. (Examples: If in 2006 the Company operates 2,017,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying, then in 2007 and thereafter the number of permitted 70-seat jets will increase to 13 1. If in 2007 the Company operates 2,044,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying, then in 2008 and thereafter the number of permitted 70-seat jets will increase to 134.)
10-11-2014, 08:53 AM
#9378
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
What your quoted statement is missing is the the change in definition of a permitted aircraft. LOA 46 changed the definition of permitted aircraft from "certificated" to "configured."
C2K
Section 1.B.17. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
c. one of up to 57 jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 70 or fewer passenger seats and a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 85,000 or fewer pounds. This number (57) will be increased to a maximum of 75 at the rate of one aircraft for each increment of 10,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying in the previous year above the scheduled block hours set forth for that year in the block hour plan set forth in Section 1 E. 1., (i.e., prior to any resets under Section 1 E. 5. or 6.).
LOA46
Amend Section 1 B. 17. c. to read as follows:
c. one of up to the number specified in the chart below jet aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 85,000 pounds or less (“70-seat jets”). This number of permitted 70-seat jets will be increased to a maximum of 150 in increments of one aircraft for each unit of 10,000 scheduled block hours by which the number of scheduled block hours of Company flying in the calendar years 2005 or later exceeds 1,950,000. (Examples: If in 2006 the Company operates 2,017,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying, then in 2007 and thereafter the number of permitted 70-seat jets will increase to 13 1. If in 2007 the Company operates 2,044,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying, then in 2008 and thereafter the number of permitted 70-seat jets will increase to 134.)
C2K
Section 1.B.17. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
c. one of up to 57 jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 70 or fewer passenger seats and a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 85,000 or fewer pounds. This number (57) will be increased to a maximum of 75 at the rate of one aircraft for each increment of 10,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying in the previous year above the scheduled block hours set forth for that year in the block hour plan set forth in Section 1 E. 1., (i.e., prior to any resets under Section 1 E. 5. or 6.).
LOA46
Amend Section 1 B. 17. c. to read as follows:
c. one of up to the number specified in the chart below jet aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 85,000 pounds or less (“70-seat jets”). This number of permitted 70-seat jets will be increased to a maximum of 150 in increments of one aircraft for each unit of 10,000 scheduled block hours by which the number of scheduled block hours of Company flying in the calendar years 2005 or later exceeds 1,950,000. (Examples: If in 2006 the Company operates 2,017,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying, then in 2007 and thereafter the number of permitted 70-seat jets will increase to 13 1. If in 2007 the Company operates 2,044,000 scheduled block hours of Company flying, then in 2008 and thereafter the number of permitted 70-seat jets will increase to 134.)
And sailingfun was responding to a post I had made in regard to the discussion about C2K.
10-11-2014, 09:04 AM
#9379
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,704
Isn't the E170/175 a 90 seat aircraft that we limited by contract to 76? If so, then the following scope history overview doesn't line up with your statement:
__________________________________________
The 1990 contract had two pages of scope (actually 1.5) allowing the company to operate unlimited 70 seat and below aircraft (with no limits type, weight, propulsion or use). Some where in this time frame ASA was given permission to operate Bae-146's (96 seats).
The 1996 contract grew to 9 pages. Real improvements were made with regard to control of the company, merger protection, furlough, foreign carrier flying, and minimum block hours of international flying (limiting future international code share arrangements if the company dropped below the minimum number). A limit of 20 was placed on the Bae-146's (or any replacement jets in a 96 seat capacity). The limits on connection carrier flying was no more than 70 seats (again, no limit on type, weight, powerplant) for passenger use, and a weight limit of 70,000 lbs for cargo use.
The 2001 contract grew to 15 pages. New to the contract was:
-minimum block hours for all DAL flying,
-connection carrier flying
-limit of 57 70 seat RJ's (weight limited to 85,000 lbs)
and up to 18 more RJ 70's (one more for each 10000 hours of mainline flying over the annual minimum set by the contract),
-limit on 50 seat Rj's of 65000 lbs
-limit of 70 seats/70000 lbs on prop aircraft for any use (weight limit on passenger use was new).
-all connection carrier flying was subject to a ratio of mainline hours/connection carrier flying.
-Rj use restrictions on stage length, hub to hub flying, and logo/name use
-DAL not permitted to code share with company(s) that operate jets greater than 70 seats (and not to be used for DAL flying)
-Bae-146's and their replacements GONE
-increased international flying block hours (with new penalties for dropping below) and new restrictions on international code share/profit sharing.
-fragmentation protection
-prohibition of DAL training pilots for service in the event of a labor dispute on our code share partners (domestic and international) and vice-versa (e.g. DAL could not hire pilots trained by Comair of Air France in the event we were on strike).
2 provisions of the above were subject to economic resets:
-the minimum number of mainline block hours
-the ratio of connection carrier flying to mainline
No other provisions were reset: meaning limits on 70 seaters (then at 57), weights, stage length, hub to hub were excused.
In the event that the economy or DAL failed to perform, then DAL was excused from those two provisions as written. (These two provisions ((as well as furlough protection) were also subject to "circumstance over which the company does not have control".) The first time either economic trigger occurred, there was a built in reset. The second time there was a provision to meet and confer to reset them again. We all know what happened in 2001 and that the triggers were met in 2001-2002. Twice. So what occurred next? DAL and ALPA did reset both provisions in the fall of 2002 as part of the NWA/CAL code share. FYI, it was the MEC that tied the two talks together as they both pertained to scope (the company asked to sever the negotiations to get a quick deal on the CAL/NWA deal).
Letter 46
-Reduced the minimum number of block hours and the connection carrier flying ratio.
-eliminated furlough protection, but required all furloughed pilots to be recalled by 8/1/2008
-reduced the international block hour flying
-allowed up to 125 70 seat RJ's (still covered by the ratio)
Letter 51
-eliminated minimum block hours
-eliminated minimum international block hours
-eliminated the ratio of mainline to connection carrier flying
-allowed connection carrier to fly up to 200 70 seat jets
-allowed connection carriers to operate 30 76 seat jets (covered under the limit of total greater than 50 seat jets)
__________________________________________
The 1990 contract had two pages of scope (actually 1.5) allowing the company to operate unlimited 70 seat and below aircraft (with no limits type, weight, propulsion or use). Some where in this time frame ASA was given permission to operate Bae-146's (96 seats).
The 1996 contract grew to 9 pages. Real improvements were made with regard to control of the company, merger protection, furlough, foreign carrier flying, and minimum block hours of international flying (limiting future international code share arrangements if the company dropped below the minimum number). A limit of 20 was placed on the Bae-146's (or any replacement jets in a 96 seat capacity). The limits on connection carrier flying was no more than 70 seats (again, no limit on type, weight, powerplant) for passenger use, and a weight limit of 70,000 lbs for cargo use.
The 2001 contract grew to 15 pages. New to the contract was:
-minimum block hours for all DAL flying,
-connection carrier flying
-limit of 57 70 seat RJ's (weight limited to 85,000 lbs)
and up to 18 more RJ 70's (one more for each 10000 hours of mainline flying over the annual minimum set by the contract),
-limit on 50 seat Rj's of 65000 lbs
-limit of 70 seats/70000 lbs on prop aircraft for any use (weight limit on passenger use was new).
-all connection carrier flying was subject to a ratio of mainline hours/connection carrier flying.
-Rj use restrictions on stage length, hub to hub flying, and logo/name use
-DAL not permitted to code share with company(s) that operate jets greater than 70 seats (and not to be used for DAL flying)
-Bae-146's and their replacements GONE
-increased international flying block hours (with new penalties for dropping below) and new restrictions on international code share/profit sharing.
-fragmentation protection
-prohibition of DAL training pilots for service in the event of a labor dispute on our code share partners (domestic and international) and vice-versa (e.g. DAL could not hire pilots trained by Comair of Air France in the event we were on strike).
2 provisions of the above were subject to economic resets:
-the minimum number of mainline block hours
-the ratio of connection carrier flying to mainline
No other provisions were reset: meaning limits on 70 seaters (then at 57), weights, stage length, hub to hub were excused.
In the event that the economy or DAL failed to perform, then DAL was excused from those two provisions as written. (These two provisions ((as well as furlough protection) were also subject to "circumstance over which the company does not have control".) The first time either economic trigger occurred, there was a built in reset. The second time there was a provision to meet and confer to reset them again. We all know what happened in 2001 and that the triggers were met in 2001-2002. Twice. So what occurred next? DAL and ALPA did reset both provisions in the fall of 2002 as part of the NWA/CAL code share. FYI, it was the MEC that tied the two talks together as they both pertained to scope (the company asked to sever the negotiations to get a quick deal on the CAL/NWA deal).
Letter 46
-Reduced the minimum number of block hours and the connection carrier flying ratio.
-eliminated furlough protection, but required all furloughed pilots to be recalled by 8/1/2008
-reduced the international block hour flying
-allowed up to 125 70 seat RJ's (still covered by the ratio)
Letter 51
-eliminated minimum block hours
-eliminated minimum international block hours
-eliminated the ratio of mainline to connection carrier flying
-allowed connection carrier to fly up to 200 70 seat jets
-allowed connection carriers to operate 30 76 seat jets (covered under the limit of total greater than 50 seat jets)
10-11-2014, 09:26 AM
#9380
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
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